1
   

More Complete than Lucy

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Sep, 2006 05:37 pm
Intrepid wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
The knowledge of hysterical processes was advanced by the work of Jean-Martin Charcot, a French neurologist. However, many now consider hysteria to be a legacy diagnosis (i.e., a catch-all junk diagnosis), particularly due to its long list of possible manifestations: one Victorian physician catalogued 75 pages of possible symptoms of hysteria and called the list incomplete.


This is one example of how the religious try to steer a discussion away from the original topic, an effort to stop the other side from keeping it going.


Why do you try to bring religion into everything? I don't bring atheism into everything. Is that all you can provide...oh, they are religious so they don't know anything. Get a grip. You were the one to bring up hysteria.


Don't get your panties in a bundle, intrepid. You got your wish, which was to keep the thread from being constructive.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Sep, 2006 05:48 pm
The thread's still working as a spot to collect/deposit information.

One of the joys of the sciences - always new information to challenge/update/refine current/previous theories.

Stale same-old same-old thinking doesn't cut it for me anymore. Gotta give credit to some of the religious posters from Abuzz and here from challenging my way of looking at things.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Sep, 2006 05:58 pm
From National Geographic

0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 06:12 pm
timberlandko wrote:
real life wrote:
Well, timber, I didn't write the article. As I mentioned, it is from Scientific American. But go ahead and close your eyes. I'll ignore your whining and discuss it with whoever is interested. Cheers.

from http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0005C9B3-03AE-12D8-BDFD83414B7F0000

Quote:
Footprints to Fill
Flat feet and doubts about makers of the Laetoli tracks


It is one of the most evocative traces of humanity's ancestors ever found, a trail of footprints pressed into new fallen volcanic ash some 3.6 million years ago in what is now Laetoli, Tanzania. Discovered in 1978 by a team headed by Mary Leakey, the Laetoli footprints led to the stunning revelation that humans walked upright well before they made stone tools or evolved large brains. They also engendered controversy: scientists have debated everything from how many individuals made the prints to how best to protect them for posterity. Experts have generally come to agree, however, that the tracks probably belong to members of the species Australopithecus afarensis, the hominid most famously represented by the Lucy fossil. Now new research is calling even that conclusion into question.

The case for A. afarensis as the Laetoli trailblazer hinges on the fact that fossils of the species are known from the site and that the only available reconstruction of what this hominid's foot looked like is compatible with the morphology evident in the footprints. But in a presentation given at the American Association of Physical Anthropologists meeting in April, William E. H. Harcourt-Smith of the American Museum of Natural History and Charles E. Hilton of Western Michigan University took issue with the latter assertion.

The prints show that whoever made them had a humanlike foot arch, and the reconstructed A. afarensis foot exhibits just such an arch. So far, so good. The problem, Harcourt-Smith and Hilton say, is that the reconstruction is actually based on a patchwork of bones from 3.2-million-year-old afarensis and 1.8-million-year-old Homo habilis. And one of the bones used to determine whether the foot was in fact arched--the so-called navicular--is from H. habilis, not A. afarensis.[/u]

To get a toehold on the Laetoli problem, the researchers first compared the gaits of modern humans walking on sand with two sets of the fossil tracks. This analysis confirmed that the ancient footprints were left by individuals who had a striding bipedal gait very much like that of people today. The team then scrutinized naviculars of A. afarensis, H. habilis, chimpanzees and gorillas. The dimensions of the H. habilis navicular fell within the modern human range. In contrast, the A. afarensis bone resembled that of the flat-footed apes, making it improbable that its foot had an arch like our own. As such, the researchers report, A. afarensis almost certainly did not walk like us or, by extension, like the hominids at Laetoli.

But according to bipedalism expert C. Owen Lovejoy of Kent State University, other features of the australopithecine foot, such as a big toe that lines up with, rather than opposes, the other toes, indicate that it did have an arch. Even if it did not, Lovejoy contends, that would not mean A. afarensis was incapable of humanlike walking. "Lots of modern humans are flat-footed," he observes. "They are more prone to injury, because they lack the energy-absorptive capacities of the arch, but they walk in a perfectly normal way."

For their part, Harcourt-Smith and Hilton note that a new reconstruction of the A. afarensis foot built exclusively from A. afarensis remains is needed to confirm these preliminary findings. As for identifying the real culprit, if A. afarensis did not make the prints, that would put the poorly known A. anamensis in the running. But just as likely, speculates Harcourt-Smith, an as yet undiscovered species left the prints. That is to say, consider the world's oldest whodunit an unsolved mystery.
emphasis mine

Gungasnake said Lucy is a case of fraud, but I'll allow it may be due to gross incompetence and ineptitude, as unlikely as that may be.

What other explanation can there be for it?

See large red text above (should be clear even to one wearing twit glasses). Also, try to grasp the concepts of preponderance of evidence and multiply interdisciplinary cross-corroboration.


Great circular reasoning.

The Laetoli footprints prove that those of Lucy's 'species' had an arched foot.

And the 'reconstructed' arched foot (made with arch bones separated by over 1,000,000 years from Lucy) proves that the Laetoli footprints were made by those of Lucy's 'species'.

I love it when timber calls circular arguments 'cross corroboration'. Good comedy that.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 06:22 pm
More straw man from rl - apparently, that's all he's got.


Well, that and red herrings.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 06:27 pm
I think the argument about the reconstructed foot is silly. To take it up as a cause and ignore the rest of the facts is to be jousting at windmills. That foot neither proves nor disproves evolution.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 07:17 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
I think the argument about the reconstructed foot is silly. To take it up as a cause and ignore the rest of the facts is to be jousting at windmills. That foot neither proves nor disproves evolution.


Rather selective of you, EB. If the foot were reconstructed properly and was actual evidence that 'Lucy' was bipedal, there is no doubt that you would consider it to support evolution, right?

The really interesting thing is, why[/i] was the foot 'reconstructed' with bones that are now admitted not to belong to a member of Lucy's 'species' ?

Was it fraud, or just ineptitude? Which seems more likely to you?

I personally lean toward the hypothesis of ineptitude on the part of the team which 'reconstructed' the foot. Having seen the scientific method and evidence so badly interpreted on so many occasions by evolutionary researchers, it seems natural to see this as one more case of it.

You'd have to convince me that it was fraud.

But other than that, what explanation is possible? None really.

The bones plainly were put on display to show something they in fact do not show because they do not belong.

This is a major scandal and the silence in the evolutionary camp is deafening.

Both Lucy and the Dikika find show all the traits of apelike creatures and no uniquely humanlike ones.

The semicircular canals show plainly that the creatures (Lucy and Dikika) utilized the balancing mechanism of an ape, not a bipedal individual.

The long curved fingers and overly long arms support this, as does Lucy's locking wrist, typical of knuckle walkers.

The Laetoli footprints look VERY human in origin (arched foot, no knuckle marks, heel-toe motion etc), but they cannot have been made by anyone with the faked up foot that we see attributed to 'Lucy' today.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 07:35 pm
I'll say it again for anybody new to the discussion, Lucy is a fraud from top to bottom.

http://www.penfoldbooks.com/product/100/821

http://www.penfoldbooks.com/upload/prod_821_Lucy-LARGE.jpg

Quote:

Confused about 'Lucy', the australopithecine (southern Ape) that is claimed to be an early ancestor of man? Ph.D. biologist and anatomist Dr. David Menton exposes Lucy as a fraud and leaves no doubt that the famous Lucy fossils belong to a knuckle-walking, apelike creature who was not a lady! The importance of this case cannot be overstressed since Lucy forms the centre-piece of the Natural History Museum's exhibit on so-called 'human evolution'. 59 minutes (Coded for all regions such as the UK and USA).


Any theory which requires this sort of BS to defend it is basically dead.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 07:39 pm
The foot does support evolution. Only thing, it is based on what they (not you) know now. New fossils will eventually show the whole truth, and there is a strong possibility the model will be pretty close to the real thing. But, you want to base your whole argument on a work in progress, to try and take our attention away from what is already proven. This is why I did not want to engage you on this thread. You want only to disrupt and try to keep our attention on the stupid case you're trying to make. Go on and post to your heart's content. You will get no more notice from me.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 10:13 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
The foot does support evolution. Only thing, it is based on what they (not you) know now.


hi EB,

What they know[/u][/b] is that the navicular that was used in the 'reconstruction' of Lucy's foot was taken from a completely different specimen , a representative of H. habilis and supposedly 1,8000,000 years old, while 'Lucy' , a representative of A. afarenis is supposedly 3,200,000 years old.

Wrong species and over a million years apart. That's what they know.

edgarblythe wrote:
New fossils will eventually show the whole truth, and there is a strong possibility the model will be pretty close to the real thing.


Someone recently said it was I who based my argument on 'evidence that hasn't been discovered yet'.

Quote:
the closest it can come is to assert, as it does, that the missing pieces are its support


Seems not to be the case.

edgarblythe wrote:
But, you want to base your whole argument on a work in progress,


I can hardly wait to see what 'progress' they will make on this specimen next.

edgarblythe wrote:
to try and take our attention away from what is already proven. This is why I did not want to engage you on this thread. You want only to disrupt and try to keep our attention on the stupid case you're trying to make. Go on and post to your heart's content. You will get no more notice from me.


Your thread is regarding Lucy and the new A. afarensis find from Dikika.

I have remained on topic and have not disrupted anything except the comfort zone of any who thinks that evolution is based on evidence and scientific method.

I don't mind you not wanting to discuss details of this, if you feel it is beyond you, but I'll tell you frankly I don't think it is beyond you.

I try to keep these issues simple enough so that even non-technically oriented folks can discuss them with relative ease.

Faking up evidence is something anyone can understand is wrong.

If you don't want to talk about it because it's embarrassing, that's fine. At least you've heard about it.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 01:41 am
Some learned, authoritative commentary pertaining to the Dikika find -
Quote:
Expert Commentary on Lucy's Baby: Ralph Holloway
As part of our publishing experiment, I invited paleoneurologist Ralph Holloway of Columbia University to comment on the recently announced Australopithecus afarensis child from Dikika, Ethiopia. Here's his response:

My first reaction to the article was really one of excitement at learning about the mix of rimitive and derived characters, and how that really brought into better focus the mosaic nature of hominid evolution. I believe there will be on-going controversies regarding the adaptive balance between upright bipedal locomotion, knuckle-walking, and retaining arboreal adaptations such as sleeping in trees at night ...


Quote:
Expert Commentary on Lucy's Baby: C. Owen Lovejoy
I invited Owen Lovejoy of Kent State University, a leading authority on hominid locomotion, to send in his thoughts on the recently unveiled skeleton of an Australopithecus afarensis youngster. Here's what he has to say:

"The authors are to be congratulated for an obviously important and fascinating contribution to our knowledge of Australopithecus afarensis and human evolution in general ...

... While the scapula does appear, at this stage in its preparation, to have some similarities with those of gorillas, it differs markedly from that of the chimpanzee, and shows some rather striking similarities with the human scapula (which the authors also note). Several of its metrics are clearly already intermediate between apes and modern humans, even at its geological age of more than 3 MYA ...

... A. afarensis already exhibits every fundamental hallmark of upright walking and running that is exhibited by modern humans! The lumbar spine of A. afarensis has 5-6 vertebrae which are all free to lordose, whereas apes have only 3-4 lumbars of which either one or two are "trapped" by their elongated pelvic bones. This makes their lumbar spine almost entirely immobile--indeed this is the reason why they must walk with a "bent-kneed" gait when bipedal and, incidentally, lordosis is also a trait that would imperil the australopithecine spine during arboreal travel--look what apes have done to their pelves and spines!). A. afarensis also has an entirely remodeled pelvis with a fully established abductor apparatus to control pelvic tilt--functionally equivalent to those of modern humans save for a small birth canal, a non-grasping foot with a longitudinal arch, a completely extended knee that maximizes cartilage contact only in full extension (i.e., during propulsion and impact loading at heel strike) and reduces it in flexion, an inflated calcaneus or heel bone for energy absorption at heel strike, and so on (reviewed in Gait and Posture, 21: 95-124, and in press: No.51 of papers available online). Even the internal structure of the thigh bone is identical to that of modern humans and entirely unlike that of any arboreal ape or monkey. Indeed the lower limb skeleton of A. afarensis is so remarkably similar to that of modern humans that I find the intent of the comment in the Nature "News and Views" incomprehensible. That review claimed that the "limb bones [of A. afarensis] are much more ape-like than those of later taxa that are rightly included in our own genus, Homo." Surely this comment was intended to refer only to the forelimb?

A little evolutionary biology seems to be in order here rather than just rote comparison of specimens. Most importantly, there would have been no biological reason for A. afarensis to alter its primitive forelimb morphology unless and until some positive selective force was imposed on it. Yet, as the authors describing this new specimen note, it already does show novel morphology with respect to such important features as partial reorientation of the scapular spine and reduction of the size and proportion of the suprascapular fossa. What positive selective force might have caused these changes away from the primitive state? As just noted, and as the authors emphasize, the hindlimb of this specimen is so highly derived for specialized bipedality that it has lost virtually all of any agility and grasping capacity (the absence of which is known from other specimens) that figure so prominently in the climbing of apes ...

... set the stage for the late Pliocene technological advances that eventually provided hominids with the broad adaptive plateau that in turn paved the way for emergence of the genus Homo."



OK - Now, lets take a look at gunga's Dr. David Menton, who's video gunga offers as evidence. A search of Accreditted Scientific/Academic Journal Publications turns up 18 articles Dr. David Menton has authored or co-authored. Not one pertains to paleobiology, anthropology, archaeology, or any other discipline relevant thereto. Dr. Menton has no peer-reviewed, accepted, published articles relevant to his ID-iot bullshit; the only publications featuring his fantasies are to be found exclusively in the Creationist/ID-iot publishing world, most notably, as is the case with the video gunga introduced, Penfold Book & Bible House - "Serving the whole English speaking world with a huge selection of Christian books, videos, and DVDs, proudly featuring a selection of "Over 50 Creation/Evolution Titles". Also available through Penfold Book & Bible House, btw, are those hard-to-find, but indispensible Bible Pens -"Fine Bible Pens that don't leak or run ... which are excellent Bible Pens that will serve you faithfully over the long term"

Anyone delusional enough to introduce Dr. Menton's out-of-his-field, over-his-head ID-iot fantasies as evidence counter to evolutionary theory is functionally brain dead.

Now lets tackle rl's "The hole in Lucy's foot" straw man. ID-iots, seeking to make much of what little they have to hand, typically pervert scientific method in order to purport to have "found" that which in fact was not there to be found, and this case is no exception. The basics of the actual science from which rl's current specious objection proceeds is discussed objectively in this article:

Quote:
Footprints to Fill
Flat feet and doubts about makers of the Laetoli tracks

By Kate Wong

It is one of the most evocative traces of humanity's ancestors ever found, a trail of footprints pressed into new fallen volcanic ash some 3.6 million years ago in what is now Laetoli, Tanzania. Discovered in 1978 by a team headed by Mary Leakey, the Laetoli footprints led to the stunning revelation that humans walked upright well before they made stone tools or evolved large brains. They also engendered controversy: scientists have debated everything from how many individuals made the prints to how best to protect them for posterity. Experts have generally come to agree, however, that the tracks probably belong to members of the species Australopithecus afarensis, the hominid most famously represented by the Lucy fossil. Now new research is calling even that conclusion into question.

The case for A. afarensis as the Laetoli trailblazer hinges on the fact that fossils of the species are known from the site and that the only available reconstruction of what this hominid's foot looked like is compatible with the morphology evident in the footprints. But in a presentation given at the American Association of Physical Anthropologists meeting in April, William E. H. Harcourt-Smith of the American Museum of Natural History and Charles E. Hilton of Western Michigan University took issue with the latter assertion.

The prints show that whoever made them had a humanlike foot arch, and the reconstructed A. afarensis foot exhibits just such an arch. So far, so good. The problem, Harcourt-Smith and Hilton say, is that the reconstruction is actually based on a patchwork of bones from 3.2-million-year-old afarensis and 1.8-million-year-old Homo habilis. And one of the bones used to determine whether the foot was in fact arched--the so-called navicular--is from H. habilis, not A. afarensis.

To get a toehold on the Laetoli problem, the researchers first compared the gaits of modern humans walking on sand with two sets of the fossil tracks. This analysis confirmed that the ancient footprints were left by individuals who had a striding bipedal gait very much like that of people today. The team then scrutinized naviculars of A. afarensis, H. habilis, chimpanzees and gorillas. The dimensions of the H. habilis navicular fell within the modern human range. In contrast, the A. afarensis bone resembled that of the flat-footed apes, making it improbable that its foot had an arch like our own. As such, the researchers report, A. afarensis almost certainly did not walk like us or, by extension, like the hominids at Laetoli.

But according to bipedalism expert C. Owen Lovejoy of Kent State University, other features of the australopithecine foot, such as a big toe that lines up with, rather than opposes, the other toes, indicate that it did have an arch. Even if it did not, Lovejoy contends, that would not mean A. afarensis was incapable of humanlike walking. "Lots of modern humans are flat-footed," he observes. "They are more prone to injury, because they lack the energy-absorptive capacities of the arch, but they walk in a perfectly normal way."


For their part, Harcourt-Smith and Hilton note that a new reconstruction of the A. afarensis foot built exclusively from A. afarensis remains is needed to confirm these preliminary findings. As for identifying the real culprit, if A. afarensis did not make the prints, that would put the poorly known A. anamensis in the running. But just as likely, speculates Harcourt-Smith, an as yet undiscovered species left the prints. That is to say, consider the world's oldest whodunit an unsolved mystery.


Note that Harcourt-Smith and Hilton do not claim their work disproves anything, note they acknowledge further work - work in progress - may either confirm or refute their hypothesis, and note that other expert opinion discounts the significance of the Harcout-Smith and Hilton findings relevant to the bipedalism of A. Afarensus.

Now, consider rl's implication the whole Laetoli Footprint/A. Afarensus/Bipedalism deal falls apart on the basis of one particular mis-constructed bit of fossil restoration - Johanson's Lucy. That too is a typical ID-iot ploy, and it is typically ID-iotically dishonest.

Quote:
Austalopithecus Afarensis

Inhabiting eastern Africa between four and three million years ago, Australopithecus afarensis was a long-lived species that may have given rise to the several lineages of early human that appeared in both eastern and southern Africa between two and three million years ago. For its antiquity, A. afarensis is one of the better known species of early human, with specimens collected from over 300 individuals. It is a species that exhibits many cranial features which are reminiscent of our ape ancestry, such as a forward protruding (prognathic) face, a "U-shaped" palate (with the cheek teeth
parallel in rows to each other similar to an ape) and not the parabolic shape of a modern human, and a small neurocranium (brain case) that averages only 430cc in size (not significantly larger than a modern chimpanzee).

The specimens recovered have given representative examples of almost all of the bones of the A. afarensis skeleton. From this, it is clear that there are many significant difference between A. afarensis and its ape predecessors, one of which is crucial to later human evolution, bipedality.


Quote:
How do we know Lucy walked upright?

As in a modern human's skeleton, Lucy's bones are rife with evidence clearly pointing to bipedality. Her distal femur shows several traits unique to bipedality. The shaft is angled relative to the condyles (knee joint surfaces) which allows bipeds to balance on one leg at a time during locomotion. There is a prominent patellar lip to keep the patella (knee cap) from dislocating due to this angle. Her condyles are large, and are thus adapted to handling the added weight which results from shifting from four limbs to two. The pelvis exhibits a number of adaptations to bipedality. The entire structure has been remodeled to accommodate an
upright stance and the need to balance the trunk on only one limb with each stride. The talus, in her ankle, shows evidence for a convergent big toe, sacrificing manipulative abilities for efficiency in bipedal locomotion. The vertebrae show evidence of the spinal curvatures necessitated by a permanent upright stance.


Quote:
How do we know (Lucy's) skeleton is from a single individual?

Although several hundred fragments of hominid bone were found at the Lucy site, there was no duplication of bones. A single duplication of even the most modest of bone fragments would have disproved the single skeleton claim, but no such duplication is seen in Lucy. The bones all come from an individual of a single species, a single size, and a single
developmental age. In life, she would have stood about three-and-a-half feet tall, and weighed about 60 to 65 pounds.


Quote:
Laetoli Footprints

(A)ccording to most creationists, these are modern human footprints that are dated at 3.7 million years ago, long before humans were meant to exist. Creationists emphasize the close resemblance between these and modern human footprints, but often neglect to mention their extremely small size and the fact they may also be similar to the feet of the australopithecines living at the same time. Exactly how similar they are is a matter of some debate.

Tuttle (1990) thinks the footprints are too human-like to belong to A. afarensis, and suggests they may belong to another species of australopithecine, or an early species of Homo. Johanson, who has often said that Lucy was fully adapted to a modern style of bipedality, claims (Johanson and Edgar 1996) that the A. afarensis foot bones found at Hadar, when scaled down to an individual of Lucy's size, fit the prints perfectly. Stern and Susman (1983), who have argued that Lucy's foot and locomotion were bipedal but not yet fully human-like, believe that the footprints show subtle differences from human prints and could have been made by afarensis. Clarke (1999) believes that the Laetoli tracks could have been made by feet very similar to those of the new australopithecine fossil Stw 573.

In short, there is a wide range of opinions about the nature of the footprints and whether A. afarensis could have made them. Most creationists usually cite only Tuttle, whose conclusions they find most convenient. The most honest conclusion, for now, is to admit that although no-one can be entirely sure what made the Laetoli footprints, it seems quite likely that they belonged to australopithecines.


Quote:
STW 573 (Little Foot)

In 1995, Ronald Clarke and Phillip Tobias announced the discovery of the fossil Stw 573, nicknamed Little Foot, consisting of four articulating foot bones from an australopithecine. These bones were actually discovered in Sterkfontein Cave in the late 1970's, but were only recognized as hominid when Ronald Clarke found them while looking through a box of miscellaneous bones in 1994. The bones had human features in the hindfoot, while the forefoot was very apelike. Although adapted to bipedalism, the big toe could spread out sideways from the rest of the foot, like chimpanzees but unlike humans. Clarke and Tobias interpreted this as evidence that Little Foot had walked bipedally, but also spent a significant amount of time climbing in trees (Clarke and Tobias 1995, Oliwenstein 1995). Other scientists, most notably Owen Lovejoy, disagreed, arguing that the australopithecine hip, knee and spine are all adapted for bipedality, and that it is "mechanically and developmentally naive" to ignore all this evidence in favor of one foot joint.

In 1997, while examining more boxes of bones from Sterkfontein, Clarke found, over the space of about two weeks, another 8 leg and foot bones from the same individual...

... The skeleton was originally thought to be between 3.0 and 3.5 million years old, but a more recent paper has claimed an age of just over 4 million years (Partridge et al. 2003). If this age is correct, it would make Stw 573 one of the oldest known australopithecine fossils, and easily the oldest from South Africa ...

... Additionally, Clarke considers that the feet of Stw 573 are a very good match for the 3.7 million year old footprint trails discovered at Laetoli by Mary Leakey's team.

Clarke points out (1998) that not only has this fossil yielded the most complete australopithecine skull yet found, it has been found in association with the most complete set of foot and leg bones known so far, with more probably still to be extracted from the rock (and since then, the arm and hand has been discovered.) In addition, the preservation of the skeleton is extraordinary, with most of the bones intact and joined together in their natural position (it is usual for fossil bones to be broken, often into small pieces, and for bones to get separated and scattered) ...



Assorted Other ID-iot lies pertaining to Lucy/A. Afarensis

Once again, the hole is in the ID-iot's foot.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 05:11 am
Timber's post comes at just the right time to answer rl's idiotic assertions better than anything I could come up with.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 05:14 am
timberlandko
This is just the sort of information I was hoping to have posted here. I started the thread to get as much good information as possible with as little creationism involved as possible.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 06:28 am
Again the basic realities:

Bones for "lucy", not including feet, were found near human footprints. The human footprints belonged to a human, and Lucy was either that human's pet monkey, or some wild monkey living in the vacinity.

But evo-losers can't handle that sort of simple reality. No, to them, the whole formation is millions of years old so that the human footprints cannot be made by a human, and logically at least one of the monkeys must have human feet.

Moreover, since the pelvis of the "Lucy" skeleton had the obvious conformation of that of a quadrapedal monkey, they proclaim that the pelvis was trampled by a deer and broken into pieces which by chance congealed over millenia into the form of a monkey pelvis, made a plaster cast of it, broke the cast into pieces, and reconstructed them along bipedal lines.

Is it any wonder these losers don't want anybody talking about any of this **** in public schools?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 06:33 am
edgarblythe wrote:
timberlandko
This is just the sort of information I was hoping to have posted here. I started the thread to get as much good information as possible with as little creationism involved as possible.


In other words. Only post what Edgar wants to hear in his thread.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 06:45 am
Intrepid wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
timberlandko
This is just the sort of information I was hoping to have posted here. I started the thread to get as much good information as possible with as little creationism involved as possible.


In other words. Only post what Edgar wants to hear in his thread.


In other words, there are plenty of threads with creationist ideas and whatnot. I wanted a thread based on the science.

Gunga snake provides a bit of comic relief with that last post.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 08:07 am
Intrepid wrote:
In other words. Only post what Edgar wants to hear in his thread.

Post anything you'd like. Bear in mind this is the Science & Mathematics Forum; post in a manner indicating either or both intellectually honest curiosity and/or some actual understanding of science, and expect those posts to be taken for and responded to as they merit. Post in other manner, and expect those posts to be accorded the credence and respect they merit.

Frankly, merely responding to the sort of medieval-mindset twaddle with which the likes of gunga and rl characteristicly polute intelligent discussions imparts to the contrived ignorance of their specious objections and superstition-based assertions far more dignity than deserved. The pathetically absurd bleatings of ID-iots serve but to further confirm the academic and philosophic bankruptcy of their ludicrous proposition. To be fair to the gullible dupes, their theology is as sound as their science. It safely may be assumed they're doing the best they are able with what they have.

On the other hand, it can be difficult to resist engaging an enthusiastic but inadequately equipped opponent in a contest of wits ... sorta like encouging an energetic pup to persist in attempting to "Get that tail ... c'mon, that's it ... getchyer tail ... keep it up ... get that tail ... "
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 08:14 am
gungasnake wrote:
...this ****...

You've summarized your position much better than I could have.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 08:17 am
To the credit of canines, most of 'em eventually outgrow their fascination with their own hinderparts.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 08:40 am
I add my thanks to the Big Bird for taking the trouble to add the kind of detail and well-referenced sources which make this an interesting thread, despite the "fighting in the last ditch" shouted rhetoric of the bible-thumpers, who want to drown out a message they cannot scientifically dispute successfully.
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