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Far-right party wins seats in German election

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 05:21 am
Yes, sorry.

The term originates from the French Revolution, when liberal deputies from the Third Estate generally sat to the left of the president's chair, a habit which began in the Estates General of 1789.

The Estates-General don't signify at all a monarchial and/or aristocratic form of government.

The German neo-Nazis are far-right, historically and traditionnly labelled in that way (that is not only because they had/have there places at the far right side of the parliaments):

Quote:
The terms Extreme right or Ultra right are used by some scholars to discuss only those right-wing political groups that step outside the boundaries of traditional electoral politics. This generally includes the revolutionary right, militant racial supremacists and religious extremists, Fascists, neo-fascists, Nazis, and neo-Nazis. In this usage the terms are distinct from other forms of right wing politics such as the less-militant sectors of the Far Right and Right-Wing Populists, as well as from the more traditional conservatives (Betz & Immerfall 1998; Betz 1994; Durham 2000; Durham 2002; Hainsworth 2000; Mudde 2000)
source: wikipedia.

Besides, the terms "left", "center", "right" are connected to the political orientation of a political party and/or the government formed by that party.
0 Replies
 
Atavistic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 07:16 am
You convienently left out the rest of the quote from Wikipedia:

"The term originates from the French Revolution, when liberal deputies from the Third Estate generally sat to the left of the president's chair, a habit which began in the Estates General of 1789. The nobility, members of the Second Estate, generally sat to the right. In the successive legislative assemblies, monarchists who supported the Ancien Régime were commonly referred to as rightists because they sat on the right side."

The Nazis were the the antithesis of the nobility. Hitler and his cronies were primarily peasants, who resented aristocrats and privelege. The noblemen of Germany looked at Hitler with contempt, as someone who was proletarian by nature. The Nazis were a collectivist government which is completely leftist. There might have been certain elements of 'the right' in the Nazis politics, but I would maintain that they were essentially leftist by nature. The Nazis and Bolsheviks were more similar than many people realize.

More interesting quotes from Wikipedia:

"Since the French Revolution, the political use of the terms "left" and "right" has evolved across linguistic, societal, and national boundaries, sometimes taking on meanings in one time and place that contrast sharply with those in another. For example, as of 2004 the government of the People's Republic of China claims to remain on the "left," despite an evolution that has brought it quite close to what is elsewhere characterized as "right," supporting national cultural traditions, the interests of wealth, and privately owned industry. Conversely, the late dictator of Spain, Francisco Franco, who was firmly allied internationally with the right and who brutally suppressed the Spanish left, nonetheless pursued numerous development policies quite similar to those of the Soviet Union and other communist states, which are almost universally considered to be on the "left." Similarly, while "right" originally referred to those who supported the interests of aristocracy, in many countries today (notably the United States) the left-right distinction is not strongly correlated with wealth or ancestry.

Fascism is generally considered right-wing, although some scholars dispute that classification. Others argue that there are elements of both left and right ideology in the philosophy underlying the development of Fascism."

That's why I would argue that historically, 'the right' represented nobility, wealth, privelege, tradition, liberty, small government, free markets, non-egalitarianism, etc. The Nazis opposed virtually all of this.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 07:22 am
I would never doubt that the the nobility, members of the Second Estate, generally sat to the right.

As said above: this has nothing to do with the form of government.

And they were the "rights" of those days, no-one doubts that.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 07:25 am
I don't doubt neither that Fascism can be found on both left and right side of the political spectrum. I really think so.

But I'd thought, we had talked about German neo-Nazis ....

Never mind, you've your oponion, I've got a different.
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Atavistic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 08:12 am
I am not that familiar with the neo-nazis views. I assumed that they were similar to the original nazis. Anyway, I will just post one more quote and then I'll let it go. This is from a book review of Leftism by Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, the Austrian noblemen and one of the brightest proponents of classical "rightism" of the twentienth century. I found this to be an excellent summary of the traditional and historical 'right-wing.'

Quote:
His background as an Austrian nobleman gives him a perspective on politics that is very different and unique compared with the vast majority of Americans. Kuehnelt also openly writes from a Roman Catholic viewpoint and pro-Christian viewpoint. He defines as "leftist" as any movement that emphasizes "identitarianism" (i.e. sameness) and either the total rule of the state or "the will of the people" over the populace's affairs. The political writings of Aristotle identify three poor forms of government: democracy, oligarchy and tyranny; and three good forms: constitutional republic, aristocracy and monarchy. Democracies tend to degenerate into tyranny as witness by the chaotic Weimar republic sowing the seeds for the Nazi takeover because it lacked any foundations in traditional German politics, which was dominated by the nobility. What is especially odd about Kuehnelt's study is he classifies Nazism and Fascism as "leftist" movements. The Nazis were anti-aristocratic and anti-tradition, and tried to create a revolutionary state. Since left wing movements tend to want to standardize everything and make everything the same, Nazism had a leftist tendency when it emphasized the "Aryan race" as the ideal for all humanity. Hitler was a product of the mass society of the early 1900s. Nazism is similar to the more familiar liberal, internationalist Leftism, which denies racial and gender differences and seeks to make the world a giant unisex, brown conglomerate. In both perspectives, one race (the Aryan or the hybrid) is given the key to the future as the harbinger of a worldly, conflict free paradise. Marxism and socialism during the 19th and 20th centuries was of course profoundly leftist. They tried (and were successful in Russia) to overthrow all of the "bourgeoisie" establishments in society and set up a totally ahistorical new form of government that supposedly would accommodate the interests of the majority of humanity, the proletariat, by eradicating traditional religion and having a small party of government bureaucrats dictate economic policy. This of course resulted in human catastrophe, as the deportations, famines and sheer brutality of life in Communist Russia and China have shown. Hatred of the Jews is generally attributed to the right, but Kuehnelt provides examples of Marx's distaste for the Jewish culture he grew up in. Democratic tyranny (this is not an oxymoron) in the name of "the people" has a heritage reaching back to the Enlightenment, the ideals of Rousseau and the violence of the French Revolution. Then of course don't forget the liberalization-at-gunpoint programs of Peter the Great, Kemal Ataturk and the US Civil Rights movement. America started off with a constitutional republic and has since fallen prey to democratic tendencies. The Founding Fathers were not egalitarians by any sense of the word (especially not Jefferson, who is usually touted as having the most egalitarian views), but were rather aristocrats who wanted to protect their own interests in the US and opposed royal authority over them. Especially harmful in the international scene were the utopian pretensions of Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill. The most prominent example of a true rightist government in the 20th century was Francisco Franco's who defeated communists, socialists and assorted enemies of the Catholic Church in the Spanish Civil War. Kuehnelt's book is also greatly helpful because he defines how true rightists in different countries may in fact be very different from each other because of a variety of cultural and national circumstances. He does not want conservative groups solely made up of the "haters of the haters," like the neo-Nazis who opposed democracy and liberalism today. He decries the harmful rightist tendency, especially prominent in America, towards anti-intellectualism. The term "liberal" can also be redefined to its more original usage. "Liberty" meant personal freedom, restriction from government control. "Liberty" is mutually exclusive with "Equality" whenever people are forced intentionally by an external institution to be the Equal (in education, occupation, physical appearance, financial income, etc) because enforced equality (a type of 'secular monasticism' as Kuehnelt describes it) goes against human nature. It is the product of a more or less conscious rejection of Christian theology because it presupposes man's perfectibility in this life.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 08:19 am
I don't think, any historian quotes Kuehnelt-Leddihn and poltical sciences he's really an ousider with his view that racism and patriocism are 'left', while 'patriocism' is considered by him as being 'right'.

(He said about himself to be a "Catholic right-radical liberal" ('liberal' here not 'left' but in the Euopean sense).

Austria, btw, has no nobility since 1918 anymore.
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Atavistic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 08:27 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I don't think, any historian quotes Kuehnelt-Leddihn and poltical sciences he's really an ousider with his view that racism and patriocism are 'left', while 'patriocism' is considered by him as being 'right'.

(He said about himself to be a "Catholic right-radical liberal" ('liberal' here not 'left' but in the Euopean sense).

Austria, btw, has no nobility since 1918 anymore.

Fair enough. What about F.A. Hayek, or Ludwig von Mises? I believe them to be representatives of the "far right."
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detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2006 08:30 am
Lately there seems to be an effort by the right to paint the Nazis as left-wing socialists. It is generally understood that fascists and nazis are right wing and communists are left wing
............................
excerpt:
Totalitarian regimes differ from older concepts of dictatorship or tyranny. Totalitarian regimes seek to establish complete political, social and cultural control, whereas dictatorships seek limited, typically political, control. Two types of totalitarianism can sometimes be distinguished: Nazism and Fascism which evolved from "right-wing" extremism, and Communism, which evolved from "left-wing" extremism. Traditionally, each is supported by different social classes.
.
Right-wing totalitarian movements have generally drawn their popular support primarily from middle classes seeking to maintain the economic and social status quo. Left-wing totalitarianism has often developed from working class movements seeking, in theory, to eliminate, not preserve, class distinctions. Right-wing totalitarianism has typically supported and enforced the private ownership of industrial wealth. A distinguishing feature of Communism, by contrast, is the collective ownership of such capital.
.
Totalitarian regimes mobilize and make use of mass political participation, and often are led by charismatic cult figures. Examples of such cult figures in modern history are Mao Tse-tung (China) and Josef Stalin (Soviet Union), who led left-wing regimes, and Adolf Hitler (Germany) and Benito Mussolini (Italy), who led right-wing regimes.
.
Right-wing totalitarian regimes (particularly the Nazis) have arisen in relatively advanced societies, relying on the support of traditional economic elites to attain power. In contrast, left-wing totalitarian regimes have arisen in relatively undeveloped countries through the unleashing of revolutionary violence and terror. Such violence and terror are also the primary tools of right-wing totalitarian regimes to maintain compliance with authority.
.
http://www.remember.org/guide/Facts.root.nazi.html
0 Replies
 
Atavistic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 06:28 am
detano inipo wrote:
Lately there seems to be an effort by the right to paint the Nazis as left-wing socialists. It is generally understood that fascists and nazis are right wing and communists are left wing

That's because they had undeniably leftist characteristics. I find it dishonest that leftists constantly try to dump off the nazis on the conservatives.


Quote:

Totalitarian regimes differ from older concepts of dictatorship or tyranny. Totalitarian regimes seek to establish complete political, social and cultural control, whereas dictatorships seek limited, typically political, control. Two types of totalitarianism can sometimes be distinguished: Nazism and Fascism which evolved from "right-wing" extremism, and Communism, which evolved from "left-wing" extremism. Traditionally, each is supported by different social classes.
.
Right-wing totalitarian movements have generally drawn their popular support primarily from middle classes seeking to maintain the economic and social status quo. Left-wing totalitarianism has often developed from working class movements seeking, in theory, to eliminate, not preserve, class distinctions. Right-wing totalitarianism has typically supported and enforced the private ownership of industrial wealth. A distinguishing feature of Communism, by contrast, is the collective ownership of such capital.

This is demonstrably false. Naziism rose out of the desperate poverty of post World War I Europe. The Fascists and Communists came from the same environment and their recruits were often interchangeable.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 06:33 am
Atavistic wrote:

That's because they had undeniably leftist characteristics. I find it dishonest that leftists constantly try to dump off the nazis on the conservatives.


You won't find many who share such an opinion .... outside conservative USA.

People, who lived there and at those days, think the same.

"Leftist characteristics" - you mean that's the first persons they send in KZ's were communists and social-democrats and the first parties to be banned were the KPD and the SPD?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 06:36 am
Atavistic wrote:

This is demonstrably false. Naziism rose out of the desperate poverty of post World War I Europe. The Fascists and Communists came from the same environment and their recruits were often interchangeable.


Sorry to sound harsh, but that is completely nonsense and demonstrates deficiencies in European and German history.

Which is quite understandable, as I've noticed.
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detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 06:57 am
Not nationalizing big industry does not sound right wingish,
.
Abolishing trade unions and returning banks to their private owners does not sound right wingish.
.................................
Most industry was not nationalized, however industry was closely regulated with quotas and requirements to use domestic resources. These regulations were set by administrative committees composed of government and business officials. Competition was limited as major companies were organized into cartels through these administrative committees. Selective nationalization was used against businesses that failed to agree to these arrangements. The banks, which had been nationalized by Weimar, were returned to their owners and each administrative committee had a bank as member to finance the schemes.
.
While the strict state intervention into the economy and the massive rearmament policy led to full employment during the 1930s, real wages in Germany dropped by roughly 25% between 1933 and 1938 [2]. Trade unions were abolished, as well as collective bargaining and the right to strike[3]. The right to quit also disappeared: Labor books were introduced in 1935, and required the consent of the previous employer in order to be hired for another job. [4]
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany
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Atavistic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 07:08 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Atavistic wrote:

This is demonstrably false. Naziism rose out of the desperate poverty of post World War I Europe. The Fascists and Communists came from the same environment and their recruits were often interchangeable.


Sorry to sound harsh, but that is completely nonsense and demonstrates deficiencies in European and German history.

Which is quite understandable, as I've noticed.

Explain
0 Replies
 
Atavistic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 07:12 am
The National Socialists

The National German Workers Party
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Atavistic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 07:20 am
Wikipedia:

Like other groups, the DAP advocated völkisch ideology - the belief that Germany should become a unified "national community" (Volksgemeinschaft) rather than a society divided along class and party lines. This ideology was explicitly anti-Semitic from the start - the "national community" would be "judenfrei" (free of Jews). The DAP was violently opposed to the SPD and to "Bolshevism", although its program had some socialist elements and it saw itself as a working-class party,

The belief that the Nazis were extensively or exclusively funded by big business is a myth, deriving ultimately from SPD and KPD propaganda. Some business figures such as Fritz Thyssen were Nazi supporters and gave generously[5], but most were traditional conservatives who saw Hitler as a dangerous demagogue and the Nazis as another variety of socialists, and remained aloof. The party's major source of finance was membership dues and levies
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detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 07:28 am
Don't play name games. Names mean nothing in politics.
.
btw, before Hitler took power, the communists and the socialists were the worst enemies of the Nazis.
.................................
The National Socialists
The National German Workers Party
.
'Democratic' People's Republic of Korea
conventional short form: North Korea
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 07:28 am
Atavistic, I'm German and speak German fluently.
I've studied history (meaning: at university) and didn't leave out the Nazi-period.

Besides that, I'm quite informed about German Party History.

All at least up to the level of Wikipedia entrances.

But thanks, nevertheless.
0 Replies
 
Atavistic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 07:36 am
detano inipo wrote:
Don't play name games. Names mean nothing in politics.
.
btw, before Hitler took power, the communists and the socialists were the worst enemies of the Nazis.
.................................
The National Socialists
The National German Workers Party
.
'Democratic' People's Republic of Korea
conventional short form: North Korea

Yes the Nazis battled the communists, but they also recruited many of them into their fold. The true "right-wing" that is the nobility and conservatives (such as von Hindenburg) despised Hitler.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 07:41 am
Atavistic wrote:

Yes the Nazis battled the communists, but they also recruited many of them into their fold. The true "right-wing" that is the nobility and conservatives (such as von Hindenburg) despised Hitler.


Question Question Question
0 Replies
 
Atavistic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Sep, 2006 07:41 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Atavistic, I'm German and speak German fluently.
I've studied history (meaning: at university) and didn't leave out the Nazi-period.

Besides that, I'm quite informed about German Party History.

All at least up to the level of Wikipedia entrances.

But thanks, nevertheless.

Walter, I've noticed that you are German and I respect that you know more about German history than me. Nevertheless, you didn't answer me. I merely asked to explain why my post was nonsense. I don't see how you can deny that the Nazi party at minimum had leftist elements within it. Would you deny that the majority of the nobility despised Hitler and his views?

I think it is safe to say that the Nazis had right wing and left wing elements in it. I don't think it is accurate to label them as a far right party or a far left party. They were an extremist party period.
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