Disappearing Act ? For the Rapture Lovers

kate4christ03 wrote:

john 17:15 doesnt contradict the belief of a rapture.....in verses 6-19 Christ is praying for his apostles....he is praying that God sanctifies the apostles and keeps them from the "evil one" so that they can spread the gospel...he didn't want them removed from the earth at that time bc they were needed to be his witnesses to the world....

this verse is about sanctification not the rapture or a contradiction to the rapture belief.....

Very well that is all fine and dandy except for you are not spinning fast enough or well enough

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

You are correct that Jesus is speaking to his disciples. Your only mistake is that this prayer is for all of his disciples past, present, and future.

In verse 20 Jesus says " Neither pray I for these alone" Which means that those disciples who are with him are not the only ones that are included in the prayer. So basically in modern day English he is saying, "I'm not only praying for these disciples."
Then he continues "but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" This statement brings everyone into the prayer. This is what also means

Definitions (Merriam Webster)
Also: (advrb) 1 :LIKEWISE 1
2 : in addition : BESIDES, TOO

Secondly if he is praying for God to keep them from the "evil one" then when does the "evil one" arrive?

Now the rapture doctrine is also in contradiction with another statement that Jesus makes. Luke 11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth [it] in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.

Why would Jesus teach that you do not light a candle and place it in a secret place, then God turns around and does the same thing that Jesus says is not done.

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Setanta wrote:

When viewing several examples of abject stupidity, i have always found it hard to choose which is the "stupidest."

LOL

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You know what i never understood, Luke 21:33, Matt. 24:35, Mark 13:35

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Dont Christians believe in an eternal heaven?

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midion pls read those verses you quoted again slowly verse 15 is pertaining only to the apostles ...if you say this verse also pertains to future disciples then what about verse 18 "i have sent them into the world" he is speaking only of the apostles that are with him them..when Christ starts to pray for those that are going to be his followers.... he never again states that he prays they are kept in this world...this verse as i stated bf is referring to keeping the apostles alive and kept from satan so that they can fulfill Gods plan of being witnesses that Christ called them to be..its not talking of never taking them bc we know all the apostles were taken...they all died.

how does luke 11:33 contradict the rapture belief...that verse is talking of being a witness to the world we are to be the salt and the light we arent to hide under a bush and never show the world our testimony or witness.... you are reading these verses all wrong

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Epi revelation 21 states God will make a new heaven and a new earth....so there is no contradiction with our beliefs

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It is certain that those who are devoted to belief based on faith rather than evidence are always unwilling or unable to see the contradictions in their belief set. That is not evidence, however, that there are no contradictions.

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Always Set?

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Yes, always, Miss Eppie. If, for example, you have questioned what you once took on faith, then you have by definition rejected that faith. You may well have substituted a different faith, a modified belief set, but you would no longer adhere to what you once accepted unquestioningly on faith.

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[bookmark]

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Setanta wrote:

Yes, always, Miss Eppie. If, for example, you have questioned what you once took on faith, then you have by definition rejected that faith. You may well have substituted a different faith, a modified belief set, but you would no longer adhere to what you once accepted unquestioningly on faith.

Do you mean that rather than see contradictions, one just switches their beliefs? Do you think that once someone has been tainted by faith related beliefs they will always remain tainted in one manner or another?

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Setanta wrote:

It is certain that those who are devoted to belief based on faith rather than evidence are always unwilling or unable to see the contradictions in their belief set. That is not evidence, however, that there are no contradictions.

I can tell you from experience that is not correct. A faith never questioned is credulity. Additionally, many Bible writers at times expressed frustration, even exasperation, with God. Consider the words of Habakkuk 1:3: "Why is it that you make me see what is hurtful, and you keep looking upon mere trouble? And [why] are despoiling and violence in front of me, and [why] does quarreling occur, and [why] is strife carried?"

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kate4christ03 wrote:

midion pls read those verses you quoted again slowly verse 15 is pertaining only to the apostles ...if you say this verse also pertains to future disciples then what about verse 18 "i have sent them into the world" he is speaking only of the apostles that are with him them..when Christ starts to pray for those that are going to be his followers.... he never again states that he prays they are kept in this world...this verse as i stated bf is referring to keeping the apostles alive and kept from satan so that they can fulfill Gods plan of being witnesses that Christ called them to be..its not talking of never taking them bc we know all the apostles were taken...they all died.

how does luke 11:33 contradict the rapture belief...that verse is talking of being a witness to the world we are to be the salt and the light we arent to hide under a bush and never show the world our testimony or witness.... you are reading these verses all wrong

Okay let us ask you, If Believers are not on the earth, then who does the man of sin make war against and overcome? Who are these saints?

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

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Midion please remember earlier i stated that there are several different views christians take on the rapture....
Pretrib Mid trib and Post trib

mid trib and post trib believe this is the christians (bf the rapture)
Pre trib christians believe this is those that get saved during the trib..144000 jews and also numerous gentiles.....pls note chapter seven of revelation ....

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neologist wrote:

Setanta wrote:
It is certain that those who are devoted to belief based on faith rather than evidence are always unwilling or unable to see the contradictions in their belief set. That is not evidence, however, that there are no contradictions.
I can tell you from experience that is not correct. A faith never questioned is credulity. Additionally, many Bible writers at times expressed frustration, even exasperation, with God. Consider the words of Habakkuk 1:3: "Why is it that you make me see what is hurtful, and you keep looking upon mere trouble? And [why] are despoiling and violence in front of me, and [why] does quarreling occur, and [why] is strife carried?"

This does not alter that rejection of any tenet of a creed constitutes a rejection of the faith to which the individual previously adhered. At that point the individual is now an adherent of Faith 2.0 (perhaps in the Beta Version). Note that my remark refers to belief based on faith rather than evidence. I am always amused, as well as disgusted, when bible-thumpers around here attack you for what they claim Watchtower dictates, precisely because they fail to recognize that you seek your own way, and that (for however misguided and caffeine fuelled your search may be) you base your belief on what you see as evidence, as opposed to faith in a creed. Those who attack you by asserting that JWs believe this or JWs believe that are assuming, based upon their own adherence to a creed, that what you believe is conditioned by unquestioning faith in a creed, as opposed to a belief based upon the investigation of scripture.

Now, as you well know, i'm less than impressed with scripture as a source of evidence--nevertheless, it is clear to me that your belief is based (at least in the attempt) on evidence rather than faith in a creed.

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I appreciate your understanding, Set.

I'll be gone all day; so come over for coffee now or wait till tomorrow.

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neologist wrote:

But doesn't the rapture doctrine claim the ones left behind are the ones who have been disapproved?

The word rapture is the Latin word for catching in 1 Thes 4:17.

I am sure you believe that verse is true, but you may understand it differently than some others do.

Not all who believe in the catching up of the saints agree when it will happen; or whether there will be unbelievers left on earth at that point or not.

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real life wrote:

neologist wrote:
But doesn't the rapture doctrine claim the ones left behind are the ones who have been disapproved?

The word rapture is the Latin word for catching in 1 Thes 4:17.

I am sure you believe that verse is true, but you may understand it differently than some others do.

Not all who believe in the catching up of the saints agree when it will happen; or whether there will be unbelievers left on earth at that point or not.

They can believe all that they wish, but no one is coming from out of the sky to take you off of the physical planet.

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Midion the bible says Jesus does just that.......

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kate4christ03 wrote:

Midion the bible says Jesus does just that.......

Where does it state that Jesus is going to physically lift people off of the planet?

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Midion i gave you the verse earlier and i believe someone else has posted it........1thes 4:17

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Disappearing Act ? For the Rapture Lovers

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