Water Softener Tank Brine level

@justalurker,

justalurker wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:
Yeah right, and you still get it wrong...

Yup, heard your squawk many, many times... setup over the phone.

Purolite doesn't know their resin, only you do.

Fleck doesn't know their control valves, only you do. You can't rebuild a 5600 without using the helper tools but I and others can and do.

Steve (justalurker), in this thread you have stated "SFR of the plumbing", that is wrong.

Steve, in this thread you have stated 5.0 gpm max SFR per ft of resin and that is wrong for residential applications as Don, the rep he spoke to and I have said. You are wrong regardless what Gary Schreiber said but, my thinking is you misinterpreted what he said or he gave you the very conservative figure of 5.0 gpm/ft as is on the spec sheet. And if you are holding the volume of resin and gpm to 5.0 gpm/ft for sizing a softener, you are wrong.

Steve, Fleck makes special tools to remove seals and spacers in a number of their residential control valves, and if you try to remove the seals and spacers in a 1500, 2500 or 2510 etc. valve you'll certainly will want the tools for it, or you'll be making some. The 5600, 6600 and 6700 valves have special tools also, I didn't make them, Fleck does, and if you stumble bum around long enough you can get the seals and spacers out of those valves that have not had the seals grow fast yet and don't tear as you pull them out but, for the spacers you need a tool because of the very close tolerance between their OD and the ID of the hole.

Steve, since Don posted his questions on the Fleck forum on the 18th, 3 days ago, no one has replied yet and probably won't, so you're wasting Don's time and wrong in telling him or other people to post their questions there.

Steve, Fleck valves, as all manufacturers' valves, come with default settings used in quality control testing at the factory. Don's control was not set up by the guys he bought it from, so you're wrong.

Don, the history data stored in a SXT timer is nowhere near as much as in the Clack WS-1 and the features are greater also but, it's too late for you now since you own a 5600 with a SXT timer. You program ether valve the same for the lbs. of salt and the K of capacity per the volume and type of resin used. The goal is to get the best salt efficiency without hardness getting through the softener (leakage) and in residential applications, the WQA (Water Quality Association, which Gary Schreiber is deep into) they say 1 gpg and I size and set up for, and my customers get, 0 gpg soft water at all times including up to and past their peak demand flow rate gpm.

BTW, as we see, we are doing all this question and answer stuff by typing on a keyboard, only Steve mistakenly thinks we couldn't do the same thing on the phone! And he knows that I do it every day, as I did with him from Oct/2003 until he bought a softener with a Clack WS-1 control valve from me in Jul/2004. Since Aug/2005 when we disagreed on the use of potassium chloride he has tried to prevent people from buying from me which actually has helped me to sell more softeners. Thanks Steve.

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

Gary Slusser wrote:

Steve (justalurker), in this thread you have stated "SFR of the plumbing", that is wrong.

I'll concede the syntax error... plumbing AND fixtures

Gary Slusser wrote:

Steve, in this thread you have stated 5.0 gpm max SFR per ft of resin and that is wrong for residential applications as Don, the rep he spoke to and I have said.

I defer to the optimum spec and that is clearly stated by Purolite.

Gary Slusser wrote:

Steve, Fleck makes special tools to remove seals and spacers in a number of their residential control valves, and if you try to remove the seals and spacers in a 1500, 2500 or 2510 etc. valve you'll certainly will want the tools for it, or you'll be making some. The 5600, 6600 and 6700 valves have special tools also, I didn't make them, Fleck does, and if you stumble bum around long enough you can get the seals and spacers out of those valves that have not had the seals grow fast yet and don't tear as you pull them out but, for the spacers you need a tool because of the very close tolerance between their OD and the ID of the hole.

Special tools are made for special people who need them. I, and many others (some on this forum), do not need to use the special tools. Don't saddle me and others with your limited dexterity and lack of technical ability.

Gary Slusser wrote:

Steve, since Don posted his questions on the Fleck forum on the 18th, 3 days ago, no one has replied yet and probably won't, so you're wasting Don's time and wrong in telling him or other people to post their questions there.

Anyone is free to post any question anywhere they want.

Gary Slusser wrote:

Steve, Fleck valves, as all manufacturers' valves, come with default settings used in quality control testing at the factory. Don's control was not set up by the guys he bought it from, so you're wrong.

My post clearly says "Your softener comes set the way it is because it is drop-shipped from a warehouse and no one who knows anything about water treatment ever touches the parts let alone sets them up according to the customer's needs. They sold you a 32k softener and that's how it comes set whether it is correct or not regarding your water conditions and water usage." That statement is absolutely accurate word for word.

Gary Slusser wrote:

Don, the history data stored in a SXT timer is nowhere near as much as in the Clack WS-1 and the features are greater also but, it's too late for you now since you own a 5600 with a SXT timer. You program ether valve the same for the lbs. of salt and the K of capacity per the volume and type of resin used. The goal is to get the best salt efficiency without hardness getting through the softener (leakage) and in residential applications, the WQA (Water Quality Association, which Gary Schreiber is deep into) they say 1 gpg and I size and set up for, and my customers get, 0 gpg soft water at all times including up to and past their peak demand flow rate gpm.

And here is where you berate the OP for not buying his softener from you. Come on Gary, you can't troll every forum and make every sale on other people's self-help forums.

We agree... 0 harness with no hardness leak through is achievable with correct softener sizing and proper setup despite you and/or any softener seller.

Gary, you're still holdin' your own but it seems it's past time for you to change hands.

1 Reply

Quote:

Special tools are made for special people who need them.

0 Replies

@justalurker,

justalurker wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:

Steve (justalurker), in this thread you have stated "SFR of the plumbing", that is wrong.

I'll concede the syntax error... plumbing AND fixtures

Nope, number of family members, bathrooms and type of fixtures.

Gary Slusser wrote:

Steve, in this thread you have stated 5.0 gpm max SFR per ft of resin and that is wrong for residential applications as Don, the rep he spoke to and I have said.

justalurker wrote:

I defer to the optimum spec and that is clearly stated by Purolite.

Of course you do, anything to deny responsibility but the Purolite manager Don spoke to says the same as I do, the constant SFR gpm is actually much higher. Here is why you're wrong, the only time you would use 5.0 gpm or less, is if you need to hold leakage to x mg/l (or ppm) or less instead of 0-1 gpg at the peak demand gpm. Which you would never need less than 0 gpg in residential softening.

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

Gary, you changed hands and didn't miss a (key)stroke.

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Justalurker,

Gary Schreiber is one of the guys I talked with last week regarding SFR, and he confirmed that 5.0 gpm per cu-ft of resin should not be considered a maximum specification for residential applications (he mentioned that some guys get hung up on this value incorrectly for home applications).

Gary said greatly exceeding a flow rate of 5.0 gpm when using 1 cu-ft of resin results in a insignificant amount of hardness leakage in residential applications (he gave an example of 15 to 20 gpm flow rates by a user that resulted in more than acceptable softening properties when using 1 cu-ft of resin).

Just FYI,

Don

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@wd8dsb,

Don,

The real world parameter to be achieved is absolute zero hardness at all times and never have hardness leak through.

That can be, and is achieved, with correct softener sizing and setup. In that, Gary is correct, and I agree with him. We differ in how we calculate that sizing and setup and that's OK because we achieve that ZERO hardness all the time.

Making the compromise to accept less than ZERO hardness at any time is a choice a water treatment pro and/or the customer has to make for themselves.

Why a water treatment pro or a customer would accept less than the achievable confuses me and makes no common sense, but that's OK too. I guess it's a matter of how much less than the achievable one will accept.

As an engineer, what's you + or -? How much latitude is acceptable in your field? How close is close enough? Is an inch an inch or 1.2 inches? Is 10psi 10psi or around 10psi?

My softeners hold ZERO hardness all the time and never leak hardness. My water is 26-30 g hard, like yours, and with two people only use one bag of KCL a month. Gary says I don't know what I'm doing and I achieved that and I'm not an engineer and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

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@wd8dsb,

wd8dsb wrote:

Justalurker, Gary Schreiber is one of the guys I talked with last week regarding SFR, and he confirmed that 5.0 gpm per cu-ft of resin should not be considered a maximum specification for residential applications (he mentioned that some guys get hung up on this value incorrectly for home applications).

And I see that justalurker still denies it!!

wd8dsb wrote:

Gary (Schreiber) said greatly exceeding a flow rate of 5.0 gpm when using 1 cu-ft of resin results in a insignificant amount of hardness leakage in residential applications (he gave an example of 15 to 20 gpm flow rates by a user that resulted in more than acceptable softening properties when using 1 cu-ft of resin).

If he said "insignificant amount" at 15-20 gpm, he is wrong. The pressure loss would be greater than 15-20 psi!!

Your softener has a 9 gpm constant SFR gpm, go over that and with your 26 gpg you'll get quite a few gpg through the softener. And if you think that is OK, that's your choice but it is wrong and Schreiber would be the first to tell you that any residential softener that allows more than 1 gpg through it is undersized; so does the WQA and I say you should always have 0 gpg.

BTW, justalurker bought a 1.5 cuft from me, which has a 12 gpm constant SFR.

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Hello Gary,

Yep, the pressure drop would be great in the 15 to 20 gpm example that Gary S. mentioned, but please note that his example was in regards to softening properties and not excess pressure drop (he was just trying to give an example from one case in which the 5.0 gpm per cu-ft of resin value was grossly exceeded and what impact it had on hardness leakage). He mentioned this data to me, but he didn't mention if it was from a commercial or residential application. He was just trying to provide an example to shine some light on how none critical exceeding the 5.0 gpm per cu-ft of resin value would be in regards to hardness leakage from a residential standpoint.

I now have my system set up to regenerate every 14,000 grains (538 gallons based on my 26 gpg hardness), and this should cause my system to regenerate approximately every 7 days based on our water usage. Also adjusted my brine fill accordingly and set my day override to 7.

I best shut up now, and thanks for all your help.

Don

1 Reply

@wd8dsb,

He should have talked to you about all the points you must hit in correctly sizing a softener, including pressure loss and holding leakage to 0-1 gpg max.

Residential or commercial, the only difference is the size of the softener and what control valve is used unless you must hold leakage to less than 0 gpg; that would be x mg/l or ppm (same measurement). Holding leakage to X mg/l is when you'd use the conservative gpm/ft3 on the resin's spec sheet; which causes the softener to be larger. The volume of resin dictates the size of the resin tank and that dictates the control valve that can be used; it has to be capable of backwashing the volume of resin and servicing that size tank.

Talking commercial... My latest, 6 weeks ago, was a softener for a 135 seat steak house that is open 11-11 7 days a week with water used from as early as 8 AM and as late as midnight. The constant SFR requirement was 35 gpm and I used a 6.0 cuft unit. The largest residential I've sold online is 5.5 cuft but I regularly sell up to 4.0 cuft softeners in today's large houses with up to 6 body sprays in 2 person showers with a large tub. That's over the last 6 yrs and so far, the only problems have been with guys telling me "we don't use 60 gals/person/day.." and they eventually finding out they were wrong and have to reprogram.

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@justalurker,

All, I am finding this post very informative and share in the same problem, although maybe with a twist. About six months ago was having hard water problems (we are on well, with very high iron). I scooped out all the mushed salt, cleaned the tank and refilled. It worked well for another 3 weeks or so, and then back to the same problem - very hard water and standing mush. I have not repeated this, trying different brands of salt, 3 times, each with the same result - 3 or so weeks of great soft water and then hard water/mushed salt. Any ideas?

1 Reply

@jd12345,

jd12345 wrote:

All, I am finding this post very informative and share in the same problem, although maybe with a twist. About six months ago was having hard water problems (we are on well, with very high iron). I scooped out all the mushed salt, cleaned the tank and refilled. It worked well for another 3 weeks or so, and then back to the same problem - very hard water and standing mush. I have not repeated this, trying different brands of salt, 3 times, each with the same result - 3 or so weeks of great soft water and then hard water/mushed salt. Any ideas?

Sounds like you may be iron fouling the resin.

How long before the "six months ago" hard water problems was the softener in service and working properly?

How much iron is "very high iron"?

Have you been using an iron treatment for the resin routinely like Iron Out or the like?

Would help to know the water conditions in detail... hardness, iron, bacteria, TDS and such.

What brand and model is the softener?

How many people and how many bathrooms?

1 Reply

@justalurker,

justalurker wrote:

jd12345 wrote:

All, I am finding this post very informative and share in the same problem, although maybe with a twist. About six months ago was having hard water problems (we are on well, with very high iron). I scooped out all the mushed salt, cleaned the tank and refilled. It worked well for another 3 weeks or so, and then back to the same problem - very hard water and standing mush. I have not repeated this, trying different brands of salt, 3 times, each with the same result - 3 or so weeks of great soft water and then hard water/mushed salt. Any ideas?

Sounds like you may be iron fouling the resin.

Really, although he doesn't mention rust staining during any of the 6+ months he's had the problem and actually said hard water? Maybe he just didn't mention it but, there are other causes of his problem than iron fouled resin.

JD, solar crystal salt doesn't mush but all types of pelletized and block salt does.

Are you using potassium chloride instead of regular salt?

What size softener do you have? How many people in the house? How much hardness and iron is in the water? How many lbs of salt per regeneration? How frequently does it regenerate or how many gallons on the meter? What control valve is on the softener?

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

I agree with the solar salt, it will eliminate the "mush". I have more questions besides the ones that you asked is , How many bags of salt did he add? How old is the system? How many tanks are there ? and did it ever work? I'm assuming that at one point it worked, but would like to know how long. "Mush " after 3 weeks or so just seems a little too quick to me.

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Ok I just moved into a new townhome and it has a water softner, I never used one before. Its pretty new, the place was built in 2003 so it must be a new watersoftener, So we finally got around to putting salt in it, and it did the regenarate thing, but I never seen an water in the tank... isn't water suppose to go into the tank? Its just salt in there. The pellets. I turned it on and heard it making noise and everything. So what could be wrong? Its been over 48 hours since the regen. thing. But still no water in the tank.

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

Gary Slusser wrote:

The K of capacity is dictated by the volume and type of resin in the tank and the number of lbs of salt used per regeneration. And yes, that equates to the volume of water in the salt tank in gallons. One gallon dissolves 3 lbs for the sake of figuring. Regular mesh resin requires 15 lbs/cuft for the max K of 30/cuft.

It has nothing do with how long the brine is sucked out of the tank unless it is too short to suck it all out. And you don't need to use more salt, your salt efficiency of 30000/15 lbs = 2000 grain/lb. That is the worst efficiency you can get unless you set the lbs higher than 15; and if you do, you still get 30K. If you set your salt at 9 lbs, you get 2666 grains/lb, and at 6 lbs, you get 20K and 3333 grain/lb.

I see you can calculate very well.
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Clack use in one year?

Thanks for you reply.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

The max K of capacity for 1 cuft of regular mesh resin is 30K. Some will probably argue with that by getting into micro managing it based on this'er that resin compared to another. If you want the softener to work consistently, use 30K/ft.

The best service run or regeneration schedule is a regeneration on average once every 7-9 days.

To get that 30K, you need to set the salt dose at 15 lbs/cuft. You have 32K programmed and then are short salting at 12 lbs. That does not get you 32K, or 30K. Nine lbs gets you 24K. All those settings give you poor salt efficiency, and that's because your softener is undersized for your 26 gpg of hardness and 2 people in the household. Have you visited the sizing page on my web site yet?

Maybe you can tell us the total salt use with the example below. I have been trying to find out what a Clack can do.
4 people (x 60 = 240/day)
19 grains per gallon
0.5 ppm iron
normal water use

If this were consistent for a year, how much salt would your Clack use in one year?

1 Reply

@Andy CWS,

You should know the Clack part is the control valve but I'll answer the question as soon as you answer it with the model Kinetico you use.

1 Reply

@Gary Slusser,

Gary Slusser wrote:

You should know the Clack part is the control valve but I'll answer the question as soon as you answer it with the model Kinetico you use.

Ok ok. I can see you will never answer that. You accused me falsely and now you cannot defend your words?

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@deejayt,

some softeners put water in the brine tank at the begining of the cycle and suck it all back out so you wouldn't see water in the tank unless you looked right after it filled. is the salt level going down?

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Water Softener Tank Brine level

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