Water Softener Tank Brine level

beg to differ, but the specific gravity of the two does cause the water level in the "well" to be a little higher. Why does oil float on top of water? I'm pretty sure it doesn't do it only in a vacuum. As you stated, fresh water floats on the heavier brine. If there is nothing stirring up the interaction between the two chambers, although connected, the fresh water is always going to be a little higher than the brine in the salt tank.

I'm sorry Gary, there is one thing that agree with that you said, his softener wasn't working when he noticed it. It takes some time to build up "mush" to a foot in the brine tank and when it got so thick that the brine couldn't flow through it, his water got hard. He's not looking for a new system or valve, just some help to fix his problem. Sucking Air, if you didn't notice was the problem,now. The rest seems to be fixed

I clean my brine tank, that doesn't sit on wood, every year and never find any KCl recrystallized at the bottom just as I drain my water heater every year and never find any sediment. I'm a big fan of preventive maintenance cause "you can pay me now or you can pay me later" just makes sense.

My softener(s) run efficiently without a glitch once I stopped listening to the know-it-all who trolls for sales on self-help forums.

My water heater is 14 years old living on a rural water system that is 26-30 grain hard and kills water heaters on average in 1.5 to 2 years.

Gees, I must be doing something wrong.

It is interesting to see that Gary Slusser is still holding his own and keyboarding for dollars on self-help forums.

Joe, a foot of mush in only 9 months would indicate a problem for sure.

Perhaps the BLFC is missing or the wrong size. Perhaps the problem is in the assembly and setup of the DIY drop shipped softener and the OP should go back to square one and recheck everything in the assembly procedure and pay particular attention to the brine pickup and brine line connections at both ends.

you're right, but as I suggested, letting the salt run down to next to nothing, not out, and solar salt should eliminate most of his problems. I agree that there should be some preventative work done, like cleaning , or at least checking that the brine isn't turning into sludge. If you let the salt run down to an inch before refilling, it will give you a week to check to see if there is any problem. Keeping the salt topped off is a major problem, and building that much mush in 9 months is hard to believe, but strange things happen with water, it actually expands when it gets cold.

sorry, the blfc could be set to fill the tank with way too much water too, causing more mush

I've seen the BLFC in backwards cause odd problems.

Actually here is what he said about sucking air: When I said it sucked air, I mean it had pulled all the water out of the brine tank, and the only thing left to suck was air at the 20 minute point.

That is normal and he wasn't sucking air. IF it was sucking air, he'd have more water in the salt tank than normal, that's not been mentioned and I assume it hasn't happened.

Same for the BLFC being the wrong size (gpm) and larger, which it certainly would be IF it were missing. That is a real stretch Justalurker put out to impress the uninformed.... He would be regenerating with more than his 12 lbs of salt and get more capacity per regeneration, and not be running out of capacity before the next regeneration; which IS his problem. If it were a smaller gpm, a BLFC controls the gpm into and out of the brine tank, then he'd run out of capacity sooner than he is. And the same if it was in backwards.

As to oil and water and their different specific gravity. Pour water into a tank/bucket/glass of oil, gas, diesel fuel/heating oil, etc. and the level in the container rises/increases. Then pour oil, gas, fuel oil into a tank of water, and the level increases/rises. Either way the level increases the same as adding fresh water to salt water brine, or brine to fresh water IF the fresh water can get out of the brine well into the brine, which actually happens in the bottom of the brine well. Recall he doesn't have hard water all the time, just a day or more before regeneration. So if he was not getting brine, he'd have hard water much sooner or always. Or... lets do it this way, in his brine refill cycle position, he is adding teh water to the salt tank at roughly 3 lbs per gallon of water, how many gallons of water would over fill his 4" brine well if teh fresh water floated on top without mixing with it and flowing into teh rest of the salt tank; maybe 3 gallons right? His 12 lb salt dose takes roughly 4 gallons and he'd have water going out the elbow overflow on the side of the salt tank, on to the floor unless he has a float controlled 2310 safety brine system, which would cause the float to rise and shut off the water before it got to the elbow if it was set correctly. So he wouldn't be getting 12lbs worth of capacity. Right?

And actually, there is always brine water up the side of a #500 air check, which is used with a 2310 valve, to 2" from the bottom of the pickup PLUS the distance it is off the bottom of the tank. So all his fresh water would be in teh well, and he wouldn't get any regeneration.

If he has cleaned his tank or disturbed the well at all, I doubt he is going to see two different levels of water again and I don't think that was the cause of his problem.

And where do you see that I am trying to sell him a control valve or anything else? What's with that kind of comment?

He is an engineer, wanting to know everything in the deepest detail, with his own thoughts on what is wrong. Everything I've said is meant to help him understand softeners, how they are sized and how things work as to the programming etc. etc. and to troubleshoot his problem, that he insisted up to just a couple posts ago was this two different levels of water in the well and he wasn't going to post here anymore. Something made him change his mind and it may be something I said, or not.

Hello Guys,

Just an update and more info.

I did clean out my salt/brine tank two days ago and now have 120 pounds in the salt bin (a few days ago I was playing with just 12 pounds). The 120 pounds of salt sits 4" below the top of the water line. The water line in the well does in fact sit 2" higher than the water line in the salt section of the salt/brine bin (kind of amazing).

As I said yesterday, with the above configuration, all of my brine is used up 20 minutes into the brine/slow rinse part of the cycle (yes it appears my 60 minutes of brine time is actually a combination of brine and then slow rinse).

I checked my diagnostics this morning, and in the last 22 hours (22 hours since my last regen) my peak flow has been 6.0 gpm. My wife did laundry yesterday, so suspect my peak happened during that time period (just a guess).

This morning I pulled the 2310 safety brine valve from the well to make sure the check valve part of the assembly was working properly. The assembly was very clean. The ball moves freely, and when I try and suck on the brine outlet fitting of this assembly the ball does in fact seal off (prevents sucking of air), and if I blow into the assembly I can in fact blow through. Therefore it looks like this assembly is working just fine. I also checked that the float valve was working properly (if I raise up the float valve I can not blow into the assembly, but in its normal downward position I can blow into the assembly.

Here is the exact configuration of my controls :
Valve Type = St1b (Standard Downflow/Upflow Single Backwash)
Unit Capacity = 32 (which I assume means 32000 grains)
Feedwater Hardness = 26 (I set this based on my water company data)
Safety Factor (reserve) = 20%
Day Override = 10
Regen Time = 1:00 (1am)
BW (Backwash Time) = 10 minutes
BD (Brine/Slow Rinse Time) = 60 minutes
RR (Rapid Rinse Time) = 10 minutes
BF (Brine Fill Time) = 10 minutes
Flow Meter Type = t0.7 (3/4" Turbine Meter)

My 120 pounds of salt is brand new Diamond Crystal 99.8% pure salt pellets (yellow bag with purple and blue printing) I will probably stop using the pellets and switch to solar salt, but wanted to use up the last 3 bags of Diamond Crystal that I still had.

Don

Gary,

I don't think you have read my recent postings correctly. I have 120 pounds in the salt tank now, not 12 (I only used 12 pounds for a couple of experiments). Even though I have a 32000 grain unit, I am actually regenerating as if it were a 25600 grain unit because I have it set for a reserve capacity of 20%.

Even though we have two people in the house, we use much less water per day than the national average. Therefore you have to stop using 2 people in the formula, and use our actual water usage which averages 70 gallons per day.

The Fleck 5600SXT does not let you set how much salt per dosage. The only way you control how much salt is used is by adjustment of the brine refill time, and adjustment of the brine time.

Don

The brine refill time factored by the size of the BLFC IS the way you adjust the salt dose. Each gallon of water put in the brine tank is approx 3 lbs of salt.

If you have a .5gpm BLFC and 3 minutes of brine refill time then you are dosing the resin with 4.5 lbs of salt (gross - not per cu ft, but in your case with one cu ft of resin it is per cu ft).

See how the brine refill time size factored by the size of the BLFC is the salt dose?

Still trying to help...

Actually Don, I haven't made an error yet but you are making a few and what makes you question my knowledge is that you think you're right, but you don't know what you don't know. Or I could say what I know.

Your programming is wrong.

I replied to your 120 lbs having water over it by 4" and the water in the well being 2" higher than the water in the salt tank.

The AWWA (American Water Works Association), those guys with water meters on their customers' houses, they say the average house uses 60 gals/person/day but, if you want to micro manage your softener down to the ounce of water, I wish you luck and can tell you now, it ain't gunna happen and have trhe softener consistently give you 0 gpg soft water, but tell me, what's the difference, 70 gals/day with 20% reserve of 32,000 or 60 gals/person/per day and a reserve of a day's worth of capacity?

Either way, your softener is undersized for good salt or water efficiency; even at 70 gals/day.

You do not have your K of capacity set correctly for the salt dose you are using. Recall that in my first reply to you, IIRC, I asked a number of questions, one was the lbs of salt or the MINUTES of refill? Your salt dose is set in minutes at a flow rate of .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs, per minute of flow. And you have 10 minutes of refill set in the programming. That's 15 lbs (not 12), which gets you 30K, not 32K. And you can't get more than 30 remember, and that's at 15 lbs/cuft of regular mesh resin.

The brine cycle has nothing to do with setting of the salt dose lbs..

Gary,
Boy I hate pick a fight, but I am not the one to pick the programming parameters for my system (the place that I purchased it from walked me through the values to program the unit). With the Fleck 5600SXT, the amount of salt brine used can only be a function of how much water and salt are in the salt bin, and how much time you allow the unit to suck brine through the resin. Right now my unit is using all of the brine that's generated in my unit. Therefore the only thing I can do to use more salt per regen is to increase the water level in my salt bin, and the only way I know how to do this by increasing the Brine fill time.

How else can I get my unit to use more salt per regen????????????

Don

Don,

This is a very, and I mean VERY, rare occasion where I agree with Gary in that your softener is undersized and not setup properly. Whether or not your softener seller had you set your 5600SXT correctly is a question you have to answer for yourself. You'll have to do what you want about that or not.

If you want answers regarding your 5600SXT then go to the Fleck forum and get answers straight from the control valve's mouth... http://www.pentairwater.com/forum/login.asp

The brine refill time factored by the size of the BLFC is how one chooses the amount of water placed back into the brine tank and that determines the salt dose.

The brine cycle during regeneration is a different cycle and not what determines salt dose.

Someone in this thread is having a mad cow moment... Denny Crane

As a matter of curiosity, how much salt do you use per month?

Don, I previously asked you what the guys you bought it from told you if anything, now I see they don't know what they are doing.

The K of capacity is dictated by the volume and type of resin in the tank and the number of lbs of salt used per regeneration. And yes, that equates to the volume of water in the salt tank in gallons. One gallon dissolves 3 lbs for the sake of figuring. Regular mesh resin requires 15 lbs/cuft for the max K of 30/cuft.

It has nothing do with how long the brine is sucked out of the tank unless it is too short to suck it all out. And you don't need to use more salt, your salt efficiency of 30000/15 lbs = 2000 grain/lb. That is the worst efficiency you can get unless you set the lbs higher than 15; and if you do, you still get 30K. If you set your salt at 9 lbs, you get 2666 grains/lb, and at 6 lbs, you get 20K and 3333 grain/lb. It's like fuel mileage.

Why do you think you need to increase the salt dose?

OK guys, help me out (and I really am honest that I need your help, and would like to learn more).

1) No where in the programming chart for the 5600SXT does it mention anything about pounds of salt, dosing, etc. The only programmable parameter in the manual close to what you guys are talking about in regards to capacity is what they call "Unit Capacity" and the units they are talking in are "grains", not pounds, etc.

2) Are you guys saying that there is no way that 1 cu-ft of resin can handle incoming water that has 26 grains of hardness per gallon? (forget about how many days per regen). I don't care if it has to regen every 3 days, I only want to know if water with 26 grains of hardness can be turned into soft water when using 1 cu-ft of resin.

Please advise, and thanks.
Don

Don,

The service docs that are available for most control valves are based on the expectation that the installer knows what he or she is doing. The docs are not meant for DIYers and that's why so many DIYers end up asking for help on these forums.

Contrary to the opinion of mail order and internet softener hucksters there's more to this than drop-shipping a bunch of parts that no one has previously assembled, tested, or properly set up. They grasp the "move it closer to the phone" service approach and quick buck sales to people who don't know what they need to know to complete the project correctly.

You are having problems because you do not understand what you are doing and expect that whatever expertise you have in your chosen field should qualify you to succeed at water treatment... and it will, if you are willing to listen and spend a lot of time learning and not arguing.

On page #16 of the Fleck 5600SXT service manual item #13 regeneration cycle step times cycle step BF is the brine fill setting.

Bottom line is that you don't know what you don't know and that's OK if you simply accept that and the help people are trying to give you and say thanks.

None of this will cure the fact that you softener is undersized and that your softener is setup to waste a lot of salt and subsequently your money. Should you choose to continue to learn about how to correctly set up a softener you'll learn that.

Don,

Sure it will but the trick is to set the softener up efiiciently so you're not wasting salt and/or water and money and keeping SFR in mind during the sizing calculations. There are areas in this country where water is a real commodity and not to be wasted.

Any volume of resin will treat grains of hardness (within reason) but the # of gallons of hard water a specific volume of resin can treat is the question. One cu ft of resin will treat far fewer gallons of 26g hard water than say 1.5 cu ft or 2 cu ft of resin will treat of the same 26g hard water.

Just for the sake of discussion (and Slusser won't like these numbers)...

1 cu ft of resin regenerated by 6 lbs of salt = approx 21,000 g hardness removal capacity so 2 people using about 60 gpd x 2 = 120gpd x 26g hardness = 3120 g hardness / day to be removed divided into 21,000 hardness removal capacity = 6 days between regen with a modest reserve.

Those numbers will work in your situation but you still will have an SFR problem with 1 cu ft of resin.

Justalerker,

I know what BF means, and I already told you I had it set to 10 minutes, and I can set it longer. I said setting this factor is the only way I could generate more brine as far as I could tell.

If you do an electronic search for the word dose or dosing in that manual, you will see that it does not exist, so I am lost when you guys use this term in relation to the 5600sxt parameters.

I just checked my peak flow rate, and sure enough I have yet to exceed the 6.0 gpm that I hit on the day we were doing laundry. All other times my flow rate is way below 6.0 gpm when I check it.

I guess my question is how to figure out what quantity of brine is needed to properly regenerate 1 cu-ft of resin. Then I would need to know how many gpm my brine refill is in order to determine if it is producing enough brine based on my BF time, or if I need to increase the BF time.

I keep hearing that my unit is undersized, but I still do not understand how we are coming to that conclusion based on my water hardness of 26 gpg and 70 total gallons of water usage per day.

(PS, thanks for the link to the Pentair forum.)

Thanks,
Don

Merely differences in syntax.

Brine fill (BF) in minutes x flow rate of the BLFC = gallons of water put into the brine tank. The number of gallons of water put into the brine tank during the BF cycle x 3lbs of salt dissolved per gallon = the salt dose or brine concentration or however you want to say it. That you don't understand doesn't change the facts, the chemistry, or the physics.

As Clint said... "a man's got to know his limitations".

Your sense of entitlement is quite antagonizing. You ask for help but don't listen so...

Here endeth the lesson.