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Questioning Determinism

 
 
Ray
 
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2006 03:45 pm
One of the propositions of determinism is that future events are theoretically able to be predicted. This begs several questions:

1) What happens if the universe is eternal?

2) If the universe is not eternal, and if theoretically being able to determine the future means being able to theoretically determine the past, would not the beginning of the universe be a cause causing itself?

3) Suppose that you can know the "future," would not knowing this "future" result in the alteration of the actual future?

4) How can a being of a system know all the factors within that system without altering it?

5) According to the Uncertainty Principle, one can't measure the momentum and position of an elementary particle at the same time. This would mean that it is impossible for us to obtain the complete data regarding the interaction of particles. Would that not hinder the theoretical ability to predict the future?
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2006 06:48 pm
There are no such things as 'past' or 'future'. those are human mental constructs. Everything that has ever happened or will ever happen (in our minds, with our limited understanding) nis actually happening right now.

Then again, I've been wrong before.
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2006 09:12 pm
Quote:
1) What happens if the universe is eternal?


Looking into the future there is no problem with eternity. Looking into the past and you have a paradox. Indeed we are all faced with this mind bending paradox that will never be solved.

Quote:

2) If the universe is not eternal, and if theoretically being able to determine the future means being able to theoretically determine the past, would not the beginning of the universe be a cause causing itself?


Being able to determine the future does NOT imply that the past can be determined. There would be infinite possible pasts that correspond to any given future. It is possible to make probabilistic guesses about the past, and this is of course what a lot of scientists are trying to figure out (geologists, astronomers, etc). The only difference is that in your thought experiment we possess all knowable information and in real life we must make measurements to gain information.

Quote:
3) Suppose that you can know the "future," would not knowing this "future" result in the alteration of the actual future?


If you believe in determinism, then there is only one possible future, and nothing at all can influence it in the slightest bit because every decision you make, and all the associated chemical reactions in your brain, could be predicted.

Quote:
4) How can a being of a system know all the factors within that system without altering it?


Answered already above.

Quote:
5) According to the Uncertainty Principle, one can't measure the momentum and position of an elementary particle at the same time. This would mean that it is impossible for us to obtain the complete data regarding the interaction of particles. Would that not hinder the theoretical ability to predict the future?


Yes, all of modern physics is based on the underlying principle that the universe is not deterministic.

However, I consider it important to understand that the Uncertainty Principle, like ALL scientific theories, is simply an idea that somebody thought of which has been shown to make accurate predictions of the physical world.

In this case, the uncertainty principle represents the fact that scientists have observed literally random or uncertain behavior.

However, just because it appears random does not necessarily make it so, and there are still scientists who (like Einstein) believe that behind the uncertainty principle lie more simple, deterministic laws that merely cause things to appear random at a higher level.

There are some interesting effects such as entanglement which show that although two individual particles may both appear to be acting randomly when considered separately, the two of them are dependent on each other. I consider this to be evidence for some lower level determinism but that's a radical, personal opinion.

It is most likely that we will never know, truly, how the universe works at it's most basic level because it is like a black box paradigm. There are infinite possible ways to build a clock, and there are only so many tests you can do on a clock without opening it up to see how it works. We can only "open up" particles so far before the very instruments that we are using to make measurements start to dramatically change what we are measuring. This is actually how the uncertainty principle was conceived in the first place.

Quote:

There are no such things as 'past' or 'future'. those are human mental constructs. Everything that has ever happened or will ever happen (in our minds, with our limited understanding) nis actually happening right now.


Time is a real dimension, and it is not treated mathematically in the same was as the 3 spatial dimensions either. "past" and "future" are simply words and by definition of the English language they are correct and not equivalent to "now"...
0 Replies
 
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2006 10:10 pm
Merry Andrew wrote:
There are no such things as 'past' or 'future'. those are human mental constructs. Everything that has ever happened or will ever happen (in our minds, with our limited understanding) nis actually happening right now.


I have to say that my day-to-day experience of life doesn't support this. Does yours?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 08:25 am
Shapeless wrote:
Merry Andrew wrote:
There are no such things as 'past' or 'future'. those are human mental constructs. Everything that has ever happened or will ever happen (in our minds, with our limited understanding) nis actually happening right now.


I have to say that my day-to-day experience of life doesn't support this. Does yours?


Day-to-day experience, too, is an illusion.
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J-B
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 08:37 am
But...we cannot live this, can we?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 09:11 am
J-B wrote:
But...we cannot live this, can we?


No. This is why I usually stay away from the philosophy forum. Smile
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 09:23 am
Merry Andrew wrote:
J-B wrote:
But...we cannot live this, can we?


No. This is why I usually stay away from the philosophy forum. Smile


Very Happy
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 09:25 am
Merry Andrew wrote:
Shapeless wrote:
Merry Andrew wrote:
There are no such things as 'past' or 'future'. those are human mental constructs. Everything that has ever happened or will ever happen (in our minds, with our limited understanding) nis actually happening right now.


I have to say that my day-to-day experience of life doesn't support this. Does yours?


Day-to-day experience, too, is an illusion.
By the way; the five bucks you say I owe you; where did you get that idea?
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 10:11 am
Plato's "appearances and ideas"
Sartre's "contradiction"
Camus's "ridiculous"
..........
Rolling Eyes

Haven't you at the some point felt that the world is so unreal?
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 11:50 am
Just because it's philosophy doesn't mean it has to be moronic. Modern day science started out as philosophy. Philosophy is like rational reasoning beyond what we can actually prove, and therefore Philosophy needs to be aware of and continue wherever modern science leaves off. It is not about making ridiculous claims or denials (Merry!)
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Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 12:02 pm
Quite so. If day-to-day experience is also an illusion, it is a very convincing one. So convincing and so fundamental, in fact, that calling it an illusion doesn't mean a whole lot. We're just attaching different vocabulary to something we can't get around. Nothing of consequence changes.
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J-B
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 01:00 pm
I agree too, that's what philosophy is supposed to be. We cannot trust anything other than those we can observe and experience. Making claims that the world doesn't exist simply doesn't make sense.
Forgive me, I am just getting a bit too tired these days.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 01:06 pm
stuh505 wrote:
Just because it's philosophy doesn't mean it has to be moronic. Modern day science started out as philosophy. Philosophy is like rational reasoning beyond what we can actually prove, and therefore Philosophy needs to be aware of and continue wherever modern science leaves off. It is not about making ridiculous claims or denials (Merry!)


I make no claims, Stuh. Like Socrates, I merely try to act as a gadfly. Seems to be working on this thread, anyway.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 02:19 pm
Merry Andrew wrote:
I make no claims, Stuh. Like Socrates, I merely try to act as a gadfly. Seems to be working on this thread, anyway.


Have you already forgotten your contributions to this thread, or do you just not know what a "claim" is?

"Day-to-day experience, too, is an illusion."

That's a claim.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 04:36 pm
stuh505 wrote:
Merry Andrew wrote:
I make no claims, Stuh. Like Socrates, I merely try to act as a gadfly. Seems to be working on this thread, anyway.


Have you already forgotten your contributions to this thread, or do you just not know what a "claim" is?

"Day-to-day experience, too, is an illusion."

That's a claim.


Ah, yes. That was in reply to J-B'S query. Oh, I know what a 'claim' is, Stuh. I've filed a few in my time. Do you, btw, know what 'irony' is?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 04:36 pm
stuh505 wrote:
Merry Andrew wrote:
I make no claims, Stuh. Like Socrates, I merely try to act as a gadfly. Seems to be working on this thread, anyway.


Have you already forgotten your contributions to this thread, or do you just not know what a "claim" is?

"Day-to-day experience, too, is an illusion."

That's a claim.


Ah, yes. That was in reply to J-B'S query. Oh, I know what a 'claim' is, Stuh. I've filed a few in my time. Do you, btw, know what 'irony' is?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 04:36 pm
stuh505 wrote:
Merry Andrew wrote:
I make no claims, Stuh. Like Socrates, I merely try to act as a gadfly. Seems to be working on this thread, anyway.


Have you already forgotten your contributions to this thread, or do you just not know what a "claim" is?

"Day-to-day experience, too, is an illusion."

That's a claim.


Ah, yes. That was in reply to J-B'S query. Oh, I know what a 'claim' is, Stuh. I've filed a few in my time. Do you, btw, know what 'irony' is?
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 05:06 pm
I think we should all examine what is meant in philosophy by "Naive Realism."
I believe that this common sense epistemological perspective on life is fundamentally delusional, but it is a form of delusion that most of us cannot do without. The paradox is fundamental: there are "errors" of thought that are essential for human survival (the sense of an ego is one of them, the idea of causation may be another). But careful philosophical examination of many of such "errors" shows that while they are necessary for survival, there is a price we pay for them. Only the mystical sage or Nietzschean ubermensch can live without them.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 06:00 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Only the mystical sage or Nietzschean ubermensch can live without them.


Or, could it be that most people simply don't try to live without them? We really don't know what the human mind is capable of because we don't use it to any great extent. I'm no neurologist, but I've read that no human routinely uses more than about 20 to 25 percent of his/her brain capacity. Most of that grey matter just lies there, idle.
0 Replies
 
 

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