The Quran - The Holy Scripture of the Muslims

Well, we have here a fundamental disagreement. If you follow my posts, you will know that I have shown over and over that Adam and Eve and all of Jehovah's creations were perfect. The creature we call Satan was perfect until he chose to sin.

The Bible doesn't deal in 'ifs' either, but it is obvious from reading Genesis that Adam and Eve would still be here if they had not sinned. We would not have war and crime and sickness and death. And, using our gift of free will we would have an eternity of time to live in harmony with God's purpose.

Your reference to non canonical books is spurious. They were left out of the Bible because their content and theme were obviously contrary to the central theme of the scriptures taken as a whole.

What you see as a "fundamental dusagreement"... I see as a difference
of opinion which really has no real significance in the larger scheme of
things. Only God knows the true nature of His creation, because He
created it. All our comments are just... speculation and theory.
So "to each his own".




You just contradicted yourself Neo.

If there are no 'ifs' then why are you supposing what would have
happened 'if' Adam and Eve had done such and such..... ?

Neo, remember what Morpheus said in the elevator:

"Know that whatever happened, happened...
and couldnt have happened any other way"



'God doesnt play dice with the universe.'
At the same time, we cannot blame him for
our own choices either because we made them.
The point is that He allowed us to make those
choices. He knew Satan was going to rebel before
he created him. Which means that he did not create
him perfect because he knew he would slip.
And the same goes for us Humans. He knew we would
sin. And that most would be tempted by Satan. Yet
he allowed it. Why? Because He knows what we know not.

Read the verses which I will post after this post.



Not really. It seems you have not watched the documentaries.
You really should.

The "central theme" of the scriptures is the issue itself.
The "central theme" was determined by a bunch of priests according
to what they wanted to make it.

The belief in the divinity of Jesus, for example, was a belief which
was incorporated to suit the mainly pagan Roman residents of the Roman
empire which would have more easily adopted Christianity if such a
belief was incorporated into Christianity. I am not saying these things
of my own accord Neo. There are eminent scholars who hold these views.

The following are the verses in the Quran which deal with Adam and Eve,
Lucifer's rebellion and banishment, and Adam and Eve's subsequent fall.



Chapter 2:

30 Behold thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? Whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

31 And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels and said: "Tell Me the nature of these if ye are right."

32 They said: "Glory to Thee of knowledge we have none save that Thou hast taught us: in truth it is Thou who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

33 He said: "O Adam! tell them their natures." When he had told them Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

34 And behold We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam"; and they bowed down not so Iblis (Satan) he refused and was haughty he was of those who reject Faith.

35 We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the garden and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will but approach not this tree or ye run into harm and transgression."

36 Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden) and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down all (ye people) with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling place and your means of livelihood for a time."

37 Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration and his Lord turned toward him; for He is Oft-Returning Most Merciful.

38 We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if as is sure there comes to you guidance from Me" whosoever follows My guidance on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.

39 "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs they shall be Companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."




Chapter 7

11 It is We who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down.

12 (Allah) said: "what prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: thou didst create me from fire and him from clay."

13 (Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."

14 He said: "give me respite till the day they are raised up."
15 (Allah) said: "be thou among those who have respite."

16 He said: "because Thou hast thrown me out of the way lo! I will lie in wait for them on Thy straight way.

17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them from their right and their left: nor wilt Thou find in most of them gratitude (for Thy mercies).

18 (Allah) said: "Get out from this disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee hell will I fill with you all.

19 O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the garden and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree or ye run into harm and transgression."

20 Then began satan to whisper suggestions to them bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said "Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."

21 And he swore to them both that he was their sincere adviser.

22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

23 They said: "our Lord! we have wronged our own souls: if Thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy mercy we shall certainly be lost."

24 (Allah) said: "Get ye down with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood for a time."
25 He said: "therein shall ye live and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."





Chapter 17

61 Behold! We said to the angels: "Bow down unto Adam": they bowed down except Iblis: he said "Shall I bow down to one whom Thou didst create from clay?"

62 He said "Seest Thou? This is the one whom thou hast honored above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment I will surely bring his descendants under my sway all but a few!"

63 Allah said: "Go thy way; if any of them follow thee verily Hell will be the recompense of you (all) an ample recompense.

64 "Lead to destruction those whom thou canst among them with thy (seductive) voice; make assaults on them with thy cavalry and thy infantry; mutually share with them wealth and children; and make promises to them. But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.

65 "As for My servants no authority shalt thou have over them." Enough is thy Lord for a Disposer of affairs.

66 Your Lord is He that maketh the Ship go smoothly for you through the sea in order that ye may seek of His Bounty: for He is unto you Most Merciful.

67 When distress seizes you at sea those that ye call upon besides Himself leave you in the lurch! But when He brings you back safe to land ye turn away (from Him). Most ungrateful is man!




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There are other passages as well.
Also, the commentary by Yusuf Ali,
and Muhammad Ali on these verses is
also very helpful. For those who are
interested should get the Quran in
hardcopy from one of these translaters
and read the footnotes bellow verses
such as these to gain more insight.

No supposition necessary. There were only two paths.

1] Multiply and have dominion over the earth.
2] If you disobey, you will die.

They disobeyed: and as Paul later said: "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12)

Look this is going no where bud.
I could very easily say the opposite: there is always just one path.
And I wouldnt be able to prove my statement, just like you cant prove yours.

You see... Theres no end to this.

And I dont want to argue for the
sake of my own ego.

PeAcE
& have a good weekend.