Chai Tea wrote:Wow.
You sure have gotten your panties in a twist over this Hep. You've gotten yourself in such a dither, in fact, you are largely misreading, misinterpreting my words. To be honest, all I'm hearing is a very defensive attitude.
Before you read my response, maybe you ought to wait a day or something to put some perspective on it. Don't worry
this post will still be here.
.......................
(oh the wheel in the sky keeps on turning, I don't know where I'll be
tomorrow
.musical interlude while hep takes a break
everybody have fun tonight, everybody wang chung tonight
.)
OK, now that I hope you're reading in a more receptive frame of mind
let's go over all this.
Yep I sure did, didn't I Chai. You are also right about the attitude. By posting this thread you single handedly touched on THE thing in my life that I am defensive about. THE thing that is rooted so deep in me that if pushed properly could have caused a reaction out of me that no one wants to see. That could have quite possibly caused many "unbelievers" as well as "believers" to never again doubt that possesion by the devil is real because of how much anger and resentment I have harbored in my heart concerning this very thing. I'm sure that sounds extreme, but you honestly have no clue how deep all of this really goes. I'm getting ready to tell you though because having stepped back and taken a good look at myself concerning this issue I realize that there is something deeper here and that I do honestly believe that your question is sincere and not geared to cause further harm to me or anyone else.
Quote:Regarding you understanding that I consider smokers are generally dirty..I was answering Intrepids post page one, post #7 where he says that being sanitary and being religious have nothing to do with each other, and that "cleanliness is next to godliness" is not true.
In my opinion, Intrepid was doing what he usually does when he disagrees with someone, he spins off the subject. I did take a moment to explain why I put both groups on people in my initial post, Page 1, post #8. I'll readily admit I did not do a very good job of it, however, that was the best I can do
sorry if it's less than clear.
So, when I talked about bathing daily, I was refuting I's stance that being clean has nothing to do with being religious. Actually, it was after osso's post about people being obsessed with cleanliness
as you can reread I expressed that I wasn't talking about obsessing cleanliness, but if one could afford and has access to bathing, taking a bath every day would not be considered extreme.
So, see how far Intrepids post got us off the main point of smoking? That was unfortunate. If you can find where I said that smokers are generally dirty where it simply wasn't refuting I's tangent, let me know.
However, the act of smoking does produce dirt. So someone who does smoke, all other things being equal, would be dirtier than a non smoker
.but saying they are generally dirty? No, that was never said, or implied.
Ok, having said the above I'm going to ask you to take a look at what you wrote. To try and see it from a different angle then perhaps the one you meant it in. So you can understand where the basis of my last post came from. First you said:
Chai Tea wrote:I like to observe people, and I have big windows. Mostly, they are people who are, well, kinda trashy and slovenly looking....not quite clean if you know what I mean. From passing by them, I can tell you their personalities basically suck too. Lot's of whining, lots of mean gossip. Most have bellies and no muscle tone, so as far as I'm concerned, they are physical and mental pigs.
That paragraph in and of itself was quite judgemental on your part. I'm not saying this because I want to "prove you wrong" or make you look bad. I honestly just want you to understand where my ideal came from. So, I let that one go and chose not to comment on it. To try to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't think everyone who smokes is like that. However, then you went on to say in a later post:
Chai Tea wrote:Intripid....I'm not going to get into a discuss re the difference between spiritual cleanliness and physical....if I do, we will wander away from the subject and this will become another adventure into scripture.
In the same vein....talking about forgiveness...Your talking about people forgiving I assume. I'm not discussing that, and for the same reason.
osso....I'm not talking about the few that can have the occassional cigarette...although why they would do that is beyond me.
Also, I'm not discussing the trend toward anti-bacterial everything. I'm talking about taking a bath every day and changing your underwear. That is certainly not extreme.
You list off all the things you AREN'T talking about and finish the thought with this sentence: "I'm talking about taking a bath every day and changing your underwear. That is certainly not extreme." I hope you can see where this thought train is going here. Over-reaction on my part? Probably. Bad wording on your part. Probably. A misunderstanding over all. Yeah... and I'm sorry. But making such classifications about people just because of what they do or how they act actually ticks me off pretty good. Yet I know I, myself, am not guilt free on this either. I have to continually struggle to not classify "christians" all in one category. Sometimes I'm successful. Sometimes I fail miserably because I have quite an attitude towards "christianity" and what it has become. *sigh* All that aside though...
Quote:Next point, about "lumping" Christians together
you know, I really was on the fence about calling this thread something about Christians and smoking, and only did so since there was another thread about Christians and drinking.
In truth, I'm not talking about Christians specifically, but people in general who believe in a God and strive to live a good life. It was my fault I mentioned Christians in the title. I hope the group I am referring to is now clear.
I could have been a bit more clear here on what I meant. I didn't mean you were clumping "christians" into one category, I meant you were clumping smokers into one category. However, in my very first post I acknowledged exactly what you said you meant here. It's really not an issue of being a "christian" it's an issue of following a doctrine, any doctrine, and your actions not following what you say you are.
Quote:Now
.regarding your comments about my having a "good feeling"
.where in the world did I say that? You quoted me yourself, so you must have read my words
What I said was
.when I bathe "I feel I am cleaning God's creation" whether or not that "feels good" to me is immaterial
if it made me "feel lousy, or cold or wet or any other unpleasant thing" is would still me feel I am cleaning God creation.
I said "when I cook, I feel I am honoring the fact that God gave us so many good things to eat to keep our bodies healthy" I did not say I get a good feeling from cooking
although on the whole I enjoy cooking, there are certainly many times I dread having to prepare a meal when I'm tired or something
.however, I still feel I am honoring God by preparing his gifts into something that can be enjoyed and keep us health.
Sometimes when I exercise, there's nothing more I would like to do than go sit on the couch and watch some mindless TV, but of course I still "feel it's wonderful I've been given a body that works at least somewhat properly and I can keep it healthy to live and learn more."
So, Hep, read what I wrote, please don't twist my words or take them out of context.
My intent was not at all to twist your words or take them out of context. Again, I'm going to ask you to look at this from a different angle. Keeping in mind what I posted above about my basis for that whole post, now take a look at how you said what you said:
Chai Tea wrote:Each time I bathe, I feel I'm cleaning Gods creation...just as when I cook, I feel I am honoring the fact that God gave us so many good things to eat to keep our bodies healthy. When I exercise moderately, I feel it's wonderful I've been given a body that works at least somewhat properly and I can keep it healthy to live and learn more.
In an early post you basically call smokers: "Mostly, they are people who are, well, kinda trashy and slovenly looking....not quite clean if you know what I mean... Most have bellies and no muscle tone, so as far as I'm concerned, they are physical and mental pigs..." Then you go on to talk about all the things you aren't talking about in this thread, finish it with this thought: "I'm talking about taking a bath every day and changing your underwear. That is certainly not extreme." And from there go on to give a little dissertation concerning your own cleanliness. Chai, even if that's not how you intended it... do you at least see what I saw here? That's all I hope. Is that you can understand where my train of thought came from. I see the error and apologize for jumping on that boat. I know we can all come off sometimes as being everything I called you in my last post. I should have just bit my tongue on that one, I know.
Quote:You say what is in your heart is more important than
..
Well, in one's heart should be honor and respect
.for God and for the body you have. I can't even address the rest of your comments about self-righteousness and so forth, because I feel my explanation above should have negated them
In all the posts made, NO ONE has actually address my question, which I restate here
.
If our bodies are a temple, how could a Christian do something so harmful, never mind disgusting and nasty to it?
Ok, take out the word Christian, and go from there.
You yourself said, Hep, that you were killing yourself by smoking
killing, pure and simple, is a sin.
You're not worried about me being judgemental or self righteous Hep
look at all your words. You're just mad, mostly at yourself, because you smoke and have not yet been able to stop. I certainly hope you do.
I far as what God believes about what is more important, non us really know for sure. If we knew what God wanted, we would be a God ourself. I'm personally banking on the fact that he doesn't want us to give ourselves heart disease, cancer and a entire host of other ailments.
So, why would anyone want to do something horrible that would cut short our very lives?
So now we get down to the nitty gritty. The only perspective I can give you on this is my own because I am certain that my reasons for continuing to smoke are much different than most of the rest of the world. However, I would like to bring something out in the open here that has bugged me for years. I hope I can convey my point clearly and help all of you to maybe understand me, and my view of the world in general a little better. These are the things I have said regarding this:
hephzibah wrote:...God is more concerned with the condition of a person's heart than he ever will be with how many times they bathed in their lifetime. How many good meals they cooked. How much they exercised...
...You, I, or anyone else on the planet are not in the place of judging anyone based purely on what we see, or what they do that offends us because we cannot see their heart or the things they went through that got them to the place they are in...
As I'm sure most people have noted by now I am a person who is very introspective. Most of the time I will stop, look at myself, asses why I doing what I'm doing, feeling what I'm feeling, or saying what I'm saying, and then alter my attitude accordingly. I do this because one of my great discoveries in life is that 99% of the things I personally over-react to actually have a deeper root than just what appears on the outside. That there is actually something inside of ME that causes a reaction. One of the ways that I let many of the offences that come from people in life go is realizing this is not limited to myself only.
That many people in life react to situations, not necessarily because of the actual situation as much as something that happened in their life that hurt them, discouraged them, made them angry, or whatever, and because of that issue, there is an almost uncontrolled response to certain things. I can appreciate that because I know, I am just the same. So I try not to be overly critical of anyone because I know we all have been subjected to a different kinds of behavior modification based on our own personal experiences in life. I do realize this is not always the case with everyone and I'm not trying to have any hidden meaning here in what I'm saying.
I'm bringing this out because I want you to understand exactly what I mean when I say God looks at the heart more than actions. Believing in God I also believe in His healing power. The ability for those hurtful things in peoples past to be overcome and moved away from through first acknowledging there is an issue, finding the root of the issue, dealing with it, and then letting it go and moving on. However, there also needs to be an understanding that we aren't always going to find the root of an issue right when we want to or think we need to. That sometimes issues linger and remain untouched simply because emotionally we may not be ready to acknowledge the extent of the problem just yet, which is the first step in getting over anything.
So when I say: "we cannot see their heart or the things they went through that got them to the place they are in..." I mean that we really don't know why someone is where they are with certain issues. We can sit back, point out their wrongs, and make our own judgements about it, however doing so is not what is going to help them to overcome whatever that issue may be. If anything it will only cause further damage and push them away from what they need to get to the place of taking the first step. Which boils down to being allowed to be who they are regardless of whether what they do always pleases us or not. So, knowing this about myself has been one of the greatest aggravations concerning the smoking issue because I have never been able to pinpoint exactly what it was that causes this kind of reaction from me. However, last night I had a defining moment in my life. I came home work, read your response, laid on my bed, and went over my life once again looking for the root of this issue. I found it. I finally found it. I finally understand now why.
Quote:Hep, if you're still overexcited, you've said your piece. If you want to address the question, I'd be interested.
But no going off on what someone at someone church did or does, or how hard it is to stop
..
Why would you choose the god of addiction to worship and why would you try to kill?
I'm sure that last sentence won't win me any popularity contests, but also no one can deny that the sentence is the nut of the matter.
The answer is found here in my own words:
Quote:I have spent many many tears on this very subject. I have gone through much frustration and aggravation about this very issue because at times I want to quit so bad and yet feel so completely powerless to do so.
I had no clue when I made this statement that I was actually stating the very thing in my heart that has kept me from letting this go. You see, the thing is that when person has been abused in any way it robs them emotionally of the feeling of being in control of themselves. Of being in control of the things that happen to them. For me because the abuse in my life started at such early age my behavior was duely modified to never quite feel in control of myself. That I would ever completely have a say in the things that happen to me.
This is shown very clearly through the decisions I made through-out my life. As a teenager I became very suicidal. Why? Because I wanted to control when I died. I wanted to have final say. In my late teens I began smoking and despite all the health warnings, despite knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that this is something that doesn't "honor" God, it is the ONE thing in my life that
I control. I have complete say over when, how much, how long, and if it continues or stops. I didn't have a say in any of that when I was being abused and because of that I was left with a need to control something. A need to feel in charge of something concerning myself.
Because as much as I didn't have any say in the abuse I also didn't have any say in how it affected me. In how it changed my life, my perceptions, my reactions to people. It shaped me into someone I didn't want to be. Now, over the years I have come a very long way with many of the issues that were a result of the abuse. I have been able to overcome the pain, the anger, the resentment, the lack of self-esteem, and the many other things this caused in my life. However, deep down inside of my heart there has always been a feeling of powerlessness. A sense of pending doom that at any time someone, anyone, could take me, use me, abuse me, and throw me away, and there was absolutely nothing I could do about that.
Sadly, this thought, this ideal, rang true once again through my marriage. That was quite possibly the most abusive relationship I have ever experienced in my life. He didn't just tear me down emotionally and verbally. That man violated me in more ways than anyone except God needs to know, and then blamed me for it. So I was left once again asking, Why? Why me? How could I, someone who has been abused over and over, dive head first into an abusive relationship? Those are questions that have yet to be answered. However, I don't think I'm all too far from getting those answers now. I am sure that there was something, some attachment, to this feeling of powerlessness that led me into that situation.
But I finally see why I haven't wanted to let go of smoking. Of why I haven't felt that I need to. Of how I've truly justified it to myself, and ruled out trying to justify it to others because in order to justify it I would have to limit my own control over this thing in my life and allow others to have a say in it. So thank you Chai for start this thread. It is truly the driving force that caused me to step back for the first time and see this from a different angle allowing me to finally find answers to questions that have plagued me most of my life.
LOL
