How should the EU be governed? Eur Council vs Eur Commission

Although I live just 18 miles away from the place, the first Hinteler was recorded in 1287 - could it be, Peter, that you wanted to write something different than "Most Europeans"? :wink:

Walter,

I think your comments support my theory...that most Europeans stay near their birth/childhood location. Over 700 years is extreme, however!

KP

Well, if my name had been Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha or Hannover ....

Walter does make a point. There has been lots of movement of people of all classes (not just Hannoverian Kings) across Europe for centuries. Now there are increasing numbers of eastern Europeans in Germany, France, and Italy seeking a better economic life.

However the economioc mobility of western Europeans today is indeed a good deal less than that of (say) Americans. Not hard to see that a common language, etc. could have a good deal to do with the difference. Another factor may have to do with the lower birth rates and young populations in most western European countries (there is a difference of about 5 years in the median ages of the U.S. and Germany, for example.) However the most likely explanation is the absence of economic necessity among relatively well-off Europeans supported by more comprehensive social welfare programs.

The most mobile populations here and everywhere are those actively seeking a significant economic improvement in their lives. This is the likely cause for the immigration that both the U.S. and Europe are experiencing. As Pete has noted, immigration has long been a key element in American life, and that has perhaps made us more adaptable to it - on a per capita basis the U.S. experiences well over twice the immigration of western Europe. Indeed it is likely that both Walter and Pete have some cousins over here.

Only illegitimates, since these uncles both were Roman Catholic priests :wink: .

(There has been another uncle, said to have immigrated to America. Some decades later, however, it was discovered that his brother had walled behind the fireplace. But that's another story.)

georgeob1,

I have no dispute that language makes probably the biggest difference to the migration levels. I was talking about movement within the USA/EU, not immigration of others.

We just don't have the same movement from (say) Denmark to Italy as you would have from Ohio to Florida, for example.

The differences between levels of immigration to the USA and EU are another story again, which I'll only pursue if you want me to. To answer your specific point, I do have 2nd cousins in the USA!

KP

Well, we took quite a lot of all types. (There were German speaking regiments in the Union army during our Civil War.) A few bastards more or less wouldn't harm the breed.

They were in Kansas, late 19th century.

Well I did sort of mix up the topics of internal mobility and immigration. Thomas has made the point on other threads that the relatively lower mobility of working populations within the EU is an argument against the adoption of a single currency. My superficial impression is that, at least at managerial and professional levels, there is a good deal of movement of people within the EU, however, that may not be what really counts.

Americans are nothing if not mobile and perhaps to a fault. I have lived and worked in Maryland, Virginia, Florida, Texas, California, Washington State, and Colorado. In each place there were many internal and external immigrants around me.

A remarkable fraction of the successful entrepreneurs of each successive generation of Americans are immigrants. Once they were English, Scottish, and German. Later they were Irish, Italians, Jews, and Poles. Now they are Hindi, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Mexican.

So both of you guys should remember that when you criticize us, it's your cousins you are talking about ! :wink:

georgeob1,

I have many close American friends, as well as distant family in your great country.

I have a love/hate relationship with America, itself. I love the physical country - it's beautiful (I spent 30 days of the last year there!). I love the "can do" attitude of so many citizens and the service quality as a consumer.

I do not like the inward looking nature of news coverage and many people's own attitudes, which seem so closed in some ways and so accepting (of violence, etc.) in other ways.

My friends, you won't be surprised to hear, are socially liberal and most live on/near one coast or the other! They are people much like me (highly-educated professionals), but it's fair to say that I'm not typical of Brits any more than they are typical of Americans!

You are right that (senior) managerial/professional levels are fairly mobile in Europe but different legal and regulatory regimes (plus language) make even that mobility pale in comparison with our cousins', your side of the pond.

KP

Europe is about to get larger & become a United States of Europe, with the prospect of centralised government. Big will be beautifull we are told.
The reality is that big is unwieldly & very costly. A mutant state nanny. Individuality will be heresy.
Why does Europe, or certain factions, want us all living under the same umbrela ?
A free trade cross border agreement is a good idea but a full federal coverall system is to my mind an undemocratic imposition. All opt out vetos would be banned.
It would be steered by the desires of the stronger national governments.
So we can expect to end up as a Federation of Euro Clones as every aspect of our lives is standardised. Then run by a bunch of over paid pen pushers & paper shufflers. A self preservation job creation society
One of the beautys of Europe is that when you go to another country, either for a holiday or work its going to be very different to your own country. It becomes a more exciting visit.
A lot of brain dead Brits go to the Costa del Sol in Spain every summer & expect it to be like the UK.
They want UK food & drink, newspapers & language but no adventure.
Europe will become a Monolithic White Elephant.

Well, the EU will become larger, but I sincerely doubt that this will infect the largeness of Europe :wink:

I doubt as well that the EU will become a "United States of Europe", at least not within the next decades. (Besides that this is no EU-policy at all.)

I too have love/hate feelings towards America - this may be the only rational reaction. The United States, unlike most countries, is an entirely invented political thing: the aberrant product of colonial discontent, untested Enlightenment ideas, and British preoccupation with a traditional French enemy. Repeated waves of immigrants escaping poverty, war, and injustice in other places have come here, and renewed that invention generation after generation. We are vulgar, inward looking, and materialistic. We place a high value on individualism, but at the same time segregate ourselves in various rather monotone groups. We value competition in social and economic matters, but persist in seeking often-ephemeral universal solutions to pressing problems. One could go on.

However we are new and still creative, not captives of our history. We have so far been spared the ghastly events that have spawned terror, hatreds and fear in other places. We are adaptive and still bold. Perhaps the contrast between the worldviews of Grandfather and young Peter in Prokofiev's "Peter and the Wolf" illustrates the different views of Europe and America on some key contemporary issues.

Many of my friends and associates are also of a liberal frame of mind, but that is only because of their stubborn rejection of my attempts to influence them otherwise. We are all well-educated, but some are wiser than others.

I'm one of those strange creatures on this planet that loves people from all cultures. I'm not a super-intellect, but there's no need at my age - 68, because I can travel this planet about three times a year at my heart's content. I find my situation quite satisfactory when compared to many who live on this small planet. Not rich, but comfortable. My politics is "moderate." My hate is reserved only for people like George W Bush who doesn't understand the struggles of the 'average' citizen, and have lead this country into chaos and killings of innocent Iraqis, while depleting our coffers to fight wars than to help our people at home with better schools and health care. His tax cuts and drug benefits are shams. Why half of all Americans support this tyrant is a big mystery to me. I'm one of the fortunate ones, because I don't need to rely on GWBush for my livelihood.

Well Cicerone, we differ on the subject of the current President. However, I would find it difficult to be sore at or hate you.

georgeob, I have differences of opinion about politics and religion with all my siblings. Doesn't mean I hate them even one iota.

BTW, all my siblings are christians and republicans. Ugh!

Third option.

There is two things I like about the EU: 1) Europe has been at peace for almost 60 years now, and the EU played a great role in that. 2) There's free trade and free migration within the EU. Everyting else about the EU -- its agricultural policy, the Euro, and so forth -- I can live without.

Now what does it take to maintain the things I like about the EU? It seems to me that all you need is a European court that mediates conflicts arising from the contracts that make up the EU, and maybe some executive power to give that court some teeth. Everything beyond that just adds to the EU's bureaucratic overhead and is therefore bad.

I say downsize the European commission, don't bother increasing the power of the European parliament, and keep most decisions on the national level.

Interesting view Thomas. That may well be where the current situation is heading. I have long held that one of the secrets of the EU's truly remarkable success so far has been the overlapping ambiguity of some of its structures and the willingness of its members to defer resolution of particularly fractious issues and tolerate the occasional rejection by individual members. To adopt a structural analogy, the institution has been tough, but not brittle.

However it is difficult to maintain equilibrium in the world. Institutions are seen as either advancing or regressing, and the end of the notion of an advancing EU, of ever increasing union, may well have some unforseen consequences. The forthcoming accession of 10 (or is it 11) new members may well occupy the energies of 'Europeanists' for a good while. However do you believe that the limited union you advocate is really possible as an acknowledged long term arrangement? I don't have an opinion on the matter, but am curious about the possibility.