JB learn to appreciate English poems

Rum chappy, Housman....

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Quote:

Rum chappy, Housman....

Aye, or AyE, I guess he was.

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Sorry for the absense. In the past week I was studying French in an organization called Alliance Francaise. Since I really want to lay a solid foundation, almost all of my day was invested in it.
And so, not until today in this week had I read some poems and shakespeare and had question again :wink:

Also in The Merchent of Venice. When things turned out that Bassanio had chosen the right casket, the lead one, with bliss, Bassanio met with Gratiano and found that during the time he was making the most significant choice of his life, Gratiano was doing his.
Thus Gratiano spoke:

Quote:

I thank your Lordship, you have got me one.
My eyes, my lord, can look as swift as yours:
You saw the mistress, I beheld the maid.
You loved, I loved; for intermission
No more pertains to me, my lord, than you.
Your fortune stood upon the caskets there,
And so did mine, too, as the matter falls.
For wooing here until I sweat again,
And swearing till my very roof was dry
With oaths of love, at last (if promise that)
I got a promise of this fair one here
To have her love, provided that your fortune
Achieved her mistress.

I don't quite understand "For intermission no more pertains to me, my lord, than you" (with "than" again, "what is what THAN what"??)

Thanks

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J-B wrote:

Sorry for the absense. In the past week I was studying French in an organization called Alliance Francaise. Since I really want to lay a solid foundation, almost all of my day was invested in it.
And so, not until today in this week had I read some poems and shakespeare and had question again :wink:

Also in The Merchent of Venice. When things turned out that Bassanio had chosen the right casket, the lead one, with bliss, Bassanio met with Gratiano and found that during the time he was making the most significant choice of his life, Gratiano was doing his.
Thus Gratiano spoke:

Quote:
I thank your Lordship, you have got me one.
My eyes, my lord, can look as swift as yours:
You saw the mistress, I beheld the maid.
You loved, I loved; for intermission
No more pertains to me, my lord, than you.
Your fortune stood upon the caskets there,
And so did mine, too, as the matter falls.
For wooing here until I sweat again,
And swearing till my very roof was dry
With oaths of love, at last (if promise that)
I got a promise of this fair one here
To have her love, provided that your fortune
Achieved her mistress.

I don't quite understand "For intermission no more pertains to me, my lord, than you" (with "than" again, "what is what THAN what"??)

Thanks

He means they both fell in love at first sight, and at the same time....

For intermission (a pause between seeing and loving) was no more relevant in my case than it it was in yours.

Does that clarify it?

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Intermission between seeing and loving!
I should see this sentence in a whole sentence since there is a ";" Smile

Thanks dlowan

btw, how to say ";" in English?

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You are welcome, and it is a semicolon.

This ":" is a colon.

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I have been following this thread and wishing I had something to add that dlowan or debacle had not already blown past me in their accomplishing. I'll keep reading and hoping.

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I think Dlowan and Debacle should think a bit of "deAmericanising" this thread---Leave more opportunity for fine folks like Kara though you have held the superiority so far.... :wink:

Quote:

LORENZO I shall answer that better to the commonwealth than
you can the getting up of the negro's belly: the
Moor is with child by you, Launcelot.

LAUNCELOT It is much that the Moor should be more than reason:
but if she be less than an honest woman, she is
indeed more than I took her for.

1. "Moor is more than reason"? Sad

2. "But if she be less than an honest woman, she is indeed more than I took her for"? So...If she is not a honest woman..."She is indeed more than I took her for"?? Why is "more"? I don't understand.

Quote:

JESSICA Past all expressing. It is very meet
The Lord Bassanio live an upright life;
For, having such a blessing in his lady,
He finds the joys of heaven here on earth;
And if on earth he do not mean it, then
In reason he should never come to heaven
Why, if two gods should play some heavenly match
And on the wager lay two earthly women,
And Portia one, there must be something else
Pawn'd with the other, for the poor rude world
Hath not her fellow.

LORENZO Even such a husband
Hast thou of me as she is for a wife.

Jessica's words are easy to understand. But Lorenzo's? The structure is too bizarre for me....

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J-B wrote:

I think Dlowan and Debacle should think a bit of "deAmericanising" this thread---Leave more opportunity for fine folks like Kara though you have held the superiority so far.... :wink:

Quote:
LORENZO I shall answer that better to the commonwealth than
you can the getting up of the negro's belly: the
Moor is with child by you, Launcelot.

LAUNCELOT It is much that the Moor should be more than reason:
but if she be less than an honest woman, she is
indeed more than I took her for.

1. "Moor is more than reason"?
2. "But if she be less than an honest woman, she is indeed more than I took her for"? So...If she is not a honest woman..."She is indeed more than I took her for"?? Why is "more"? I don't understand.

Quote:
JESSICA Past all expressing. It is very meet
The Lord Bassanio live an upright life;
For, having such a blessing in his lady,
He finds the joys of heaven here on earth;
And if on earth he do not mean it, then
In reason he should never come to heaven
Why, if two gods should play some heavenly match
And on the wager lay two earthly women,
And Portia one, there must be something else
Pawn'd with the other, for the poor rude world
Hath not her fellow.

LORENZO Even such a husband
Hast thou of me as she is for a wife.

Jessica's words are easy to understand. But Lorenzo's? The structure is too bizarre for me....

(Dlowan is NOT American and kara IS!!!! Laughing

)

1. Moor is

Moors, nomadic people of the northern shores of Africa, originally the inhabitants of Mauretania. They were chiefly of Berber and Arab stock. In the 8th cent. the Moors were converted to Islam and became fanatic Muslims. They spread SW into Africa (see Mauritania) and NW into Spain. Under Tarik ibn Ziyad they crossed to Gibraltar in 711 and easily overran the crumbling Visigothic kingdom of Roderick. They spread beyond the Pyrenees into France, where they were turned back at Tours by Charles Martel (732). In 756, Abd ar-Rahman I established the Umayyad dynasty at Córdoba. This emirate became under Abd ar-Rahman III the caliphate of Córdoba. The court there grew in wealth, splendor, and culture. The regent al-Mansur in the late 10th cent. waged bitter warfare with the Christians of N Spain, where, from the beginning, the Moorish conquest had met with its only opposition. The cities of the south, Toledo, Córdoba, and Seville, speedily became centers of the new culture and were famed for their universities and architectural treasures (see Moorish art and architecture). With the exception of brief periods, there was, however, no strong central government; the power was split up among dissenting local leaders and factions. The caliphate fell in 1031, and the Almoravids in 1086 took over Moorish Spain, which was throughout the whole period closely connected in rule with Morocco. Almoravid control slowly declined and by 1174 was supplanted by the Almohads. These successive waves of invasion had brought into Spain thousands of skilled Moorish artisans and industrious farmers who contributed largely to the intermittent prosperity of the country. They were killed or expelled in large numbers (to the great loss of Spain) in the Christian reconquest, which began with the recovery of Toledo (1085) by Alfonso VI, king of León and Castile. The great Christian victory (1212) of Navas de Tolosa prepared the way for the downfall of the Muslims. Córdoba fell to Ferdinand III of Castile in 1236. The wars went on, and one by one the Moorish strongholds fell, until only Granada remained in their hands. Málaga was taken (1487) after a long siege by the forces of Ferdinand and Isabella, and in 1492 Granada was recovered. Many of the Moors remained in Spain; those who remained faithful to Islam were called Mudejares, while those who accepted Christianity were called Moriscos. They were allowed to stay in Spain but were kept under close surveillance. They were persecuted by Philip II, revolted in 1568, and in the Inquisition were virtually exterminated. In 1609 the remaining Moriscos were expelled. Thus the glory of the Moorish civilization in Spain was gradually extinguished. Its contributions to Western Europe and especially to Spain were almost incalculable—in art and architecture, medicine and science, and learning (especially ancient Greek learning).

ie a person...the same person as "the negro".

2. This is witty byplay based on the similar sounds and different meanings of "Moor" and "more" and also play on "more" and "less".

More than I took her for, meaning, I suppose, that she is more ie a NOT an honest woman...ie there is more to her than the good woman he took her for/ believed her to be...with probably a play on "took" as another word for "had sex with"....after which she is, indeed, more than she was when he "took" he, since she has a baby inside her.

I don't have time to look it up, but I am wondering if Launcelot is saying that he has NOT "taken" her, and that she is not with child? Or perhaps they are secretly married and he is taking pleasure in bewildering and misdirecting Lorenzo? (I should know this, but I don't...I bet Debacle or Kara do! Or Merry Andrew! Help!)

Lorenzo means he will be as good a husband to Jessica as the woman she is praising is a wife to Bassanio.

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Yes, apart from "If she is less than an honest woman, she is indeed more than I took her for"
("If she is not an honest woman, she is...", no, doesn't make sense)

Apart from that, all are clear Smile

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My friend in Australia bought me a Yeats' selected poems for birthday (I have seldom had birthday for ages)...so haha!

Quote:

The Choice

The intellect of man is forced to choose
perfection of the life, or of the work,
And if it take the second must refuse
A heavenly mansion, raging in the dark.
When all that story's finished, what's the news?
In luck or out the toil has left its mark:
That old perplexity an empty purse,
Or the day's vanity, the night's remorse.

William Butler Yeats

I like this one.
I see this poem as an individual questioning "busy" and "worrying" people the way of living, and also revealing constant contradiction between "empty purse" and "day's vanity, night's remorse" (how I love this "vanity and remorse"!).
Yeats showed his personal romanticism by putting the ultimate question: death. "A heavenly mansion, raging in the dark."
"When all that story's finished, what's the news?"
People may work for their "purse", but ultimately they shouldn't forget what's really important, and more important. That's life itself, only true standard value of every individual.

That's my understanding. Do you agree with me more or less on this? :wink:

Though I still have a question:

Quote:

In luck or out the toil has left its mark:

What's is "toil"? what is "In luck or out" (which I will restructure as "In or out luck")?

JB

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J-B wrote:

My friend in Australia bought me a Yeats' selected poems for birthday (I have seldom had birthday for ages)...so haha!

Quote:
The Choice

The intellect of man is forced to choose
perfection of the life, or of the work,
And if it take the second must refuse
A heavenly mansion, raging in the dark.
When all that story's finished, what's the news?
In luck or out the toil has left its mark:
That old perplexity an empty purse,
Or the day's vanity, the night's remorse.

William Butler Yeats

I like this one.
I see this poem as an individual questioning "busy" and "worrying" people the way of living, and also revealing constant contradiction between "empty purse" and "day's vanity, night's remorse" (how I love this "vanity and remorse"!).
Yeats showed his personal romanticism by putting the ultimate question: death. "A heavenly mansion, raging in the dark."
"When all that story's finished, what's the news?"
People may work for their "purse", but ultimately they shouldn't forget what's really important, and more important. That's life itself, only true standard value of every individual.

That's my understanding. Do you agree with me more or less on this? :wink:

Though I still have a question:

Quote:
In luck or out the toil has left its mark:

What's is "toil"? what is "In luck or out" (which I will restructure as "In or out luck")?

JB

Toil = hard work

In luck or out = whether lucky or not

I think the poem is more about a choice between being able to concentrate either on living life, or a good life and "the work", which in Yeats' case means his poetry.

It seems Yeats thinks goodness, earning a "heavenly mansion" is incompatible with being a great poet, one who "rages in the dark"....yet, sadly, he seems also to doubt his work...wondering what does he have at the end of his life's work? ....("the news")...continuing perplexity, and no material gain....or perhaps he sees himself as an empty purse....(I am thinking perhaps this makes reference possibly to both his withered potency..sexual and poetic...as well as to our old friends the talents, as well as to the more literal poverty).

Perhaps he means that the poetic impulse is hewn from doubt and the darker aspects of self, as well, perhaps, that pursuing it leaves less of oneself for being good and kind and resting in calm belief...that one must ever rage and doubt and struggle...and perhaps one's calling leaves one crueller to others than one should be.

Yeats was a christian.....

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That certainly makes more sense than my version :wink:

But how to understand:

Quote:

Or the day's vanity, the night's remorse.

?

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I have found a plain-language explanation for our hanging question on Lancelot's puns.

Quote:

It's too bad there's more of the Moor than there ought to be. Well, even if she's a less than honest woman, she's still a lot more respectable than I thought at first.

source
Satisfactory?

But who is "She"? Pregnant Moor or Jessica? I thought the former before but now I suspect the latter.

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J-B wrote:

I have found a plain-language explanation for our hanging question on Lancelot's puns.

Quote:
It's too bad there's more of the Moor than there ought to be. Well, even if she's a less than honest woman, she's still a lot more respectable than I thought at first.

source
Satisfactory?

But who is "She"? Pregnant Moor or Jessica? I thought the former before but now I suspect the latter.

The pregnant Moor.

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Well, I suddenly have a feeling that this LANCELOT is a character meant to utter nonsense...

It's convoluted.
I have reached my boundary in understanding this smoothly, I will try it again in the future.

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J-B wrote:

Well, I suddenly have a feeling that this LANCELOT is a character meant to utter nonsense...

It's convoluted.
I have reached my boundary in understanding this smoothly, I will try it again in the future.

Lol!!! Yes...he is indeed meant as light relief. There are many such characters in Shakespeare.

Here is a commentary on the Yeats I found:

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 :::

The Day's Vanity

Yeats wrote:

The intellect of man is forced to choose
perfection of the life, or of the work.

An odd way of putting it. The intellect is forced to choose, but not the man? Maybe he means, not that we must actually choose -- how could we? -- but that we must make up a story about what we are doing with our lives.

Yeats was obsessed with creating perfect work, and I think this line tells us why. To create perfect work is to have an excuse for a botched life.

And if it take the second must refuse
A heavenly mansion, raging in the dark.

I guess if you take the second, you get to indulge in fantasies about what would have happened if you'd chosen the first :-) We rage in the dark in any case. But

When all that story's finished, what's the news?
In luck or out the toil has left its mark:
That old perplexity an empty purse,
Or the day's vanity, the night's remorse.

What old perplexity? The only perplexity we've been told about is the perplexity of the choice between the life and the work. A perplexity, apparently, that's formed the currency of the work that supposedly denied it. But exhausted, at the end.

At the end we come the same place, then -- the place of recognizing the vanity of all our works -- to which presumably we would have gone had we chosen perfection of the life. But we are spent, exhausted by the habit of work -- by the mark it has left on us.

As so often, with Yeats, the swagger. I come to the end the poem with no doubt that he considers the second a nobler choice, the ubermensch's choice, the Great Artist's choice, and we're supposed to admire him for it, and pity the suffering it has entailed. Art may be vanity, but it's a higher calling than lounging about in heavenly mansions.

I loved Yeats when I was young. I still do -- what a fabulous line, The day's vanity, the night's remorse! -- but I no longer think of him as a guide. There is no such choice. There is no perfect work, and there is no perfect life, and even if there were, one couldn't compensate for the other.

I like it.

http://koshtra.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_koshtra_archive.html

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Me too

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Übermensch, yes that fits with "heavenly mansion, raging in the dark"

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Question popped up: Does "Day's vanity" mean "Vanity of Day" or "Vanity (or people) during the day"?

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JB learn to appreciate English poems

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