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JB learn to appreciate English poems

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Jul, 2006 06:04 am
J-B wrote:
Quote:
Shakespeare Sonnet LXXII

No longer mourn for me when I am dead
Than you shall hear the surly sullen bell
Give warning to the world that I am fled
From the vile world with vilest worms to dwell.
Nay if yo read this line, remember not
The hand that writ it, for I love you so
That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot
If thinking on me then should make you woe.
O, if, I say, you look upon this verse,
When I perhaps compounded am with clay,
Do not so much as my poor name rehearse,
But let your love even with my life decay,
Lest the wise world should look into your moan
And mock you with me after I am gone.


1. Can you paraphrase the first sentence? The word "Than" complicates the matter for me.
2. Are two "worlds" of Line 3 and Line 4 the same world?
3. What is the purpose of the word "Nay" in the line 5?
4. "compounded with clay"? Means death?
5. So, is there any more biblical parable about "the wise world"? :wink:

Thank you.
JB




1. Do not mourn for me any longer than the mourning bell rings.

2. Yes.

3. The nay means that he wants the person to whom he is addressing the poem to remember him even less than for the time the mourning bell rings, that is not at all. It's like "Only remember me for a tiny amount of time.....No, on second thoughts, do not remember me at all..."


4. Yep...returning to the earth...the funeral service speaks of "ashes to ashes, dust to dust.." The bible says god created humanity from earth, as I recall...


5. No, I think the wise world is only bitterly ironic, not biblical...





4. Oops...looks like clay isn't mentioned in the creation....


here is the hit I got for clay + bible:


The Potter and the Clay

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Jer 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Jer 18:13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.

Jer 18:14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken?

Jer 18:15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up;

Jer 18:16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head.

Jer 18:17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.

Jer 18:18 Then said they, Come and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.

Jer 18:19 Give heed to me, O LORD, and hearken to the voice of them that contend with me.

Jer 18:20 Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.

Jer 18:21 Therefore deliver up their children to the famine, and pour out their blood by the force of the sword; and let their wives be bereaved of their children, and be widows; and let their men be put to death; let their young men be slain by the sword in battle.

Jer 18:22 Let a cry be heard from their houses, when thou shalt bring a troop suddenly upon them: for they have digged a pit to take me, and hid snares for my feet.

Jer 18:23 Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay me: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal thus with them in the time of thine anger.
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jul, 2006 02:27 am
Thanks Dlowan Smile
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jul, 2006 03:19 am
You are very welcome! It is fun.
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jul, 2006 09:24 pm
Quote:
Little Lamb, who made thee?
Dost thou know who made thee?
Gave thee life, and bid thee feed,
By the stream and o'er the mead;
Gave thee clothing of delight,
Softest clothing, woolly, bright;
Gave thee such a tender voice,
Making all the vales rejoice?
Little Lamb, who made thee?
Dost thou know who made thee?

Little Lamb, I'll tell thee,
Little Lamb, I'll tell thee.
He is called by thy name,
For He calls Himself a Lamb.
He is meek, and He is mild;
He became a little child.
I a child, and thou a lamb,
We are called by His name.
Little Lamb, God bless thee!
Little Lamb, God bless thee!



What's a "Lamb"? I long deemed shepherd as "LORD", so the Lamb should be mankind? But how to understand this poem?
And how to understand "I" here?


Thank you.
JB
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jul, 2006 09:54 pm
J-B wrote:
Quote:
Little Lamb, who made thee?
Dost thou know who made thee?
Gave thee life, and bid thee feed,
By the stream and o'er the mead;
Gave thee clothing of delight,
Softest clothing, woolly, bright;
Gave thee such a tender voice,
Making all the vales rejoice?
Little Lamb, who made thee?
Dost thou know who made thee?

Little Lamb, I'll tell thee,
Little Lamb, I'll tell thee.
He is called by thy name,
For He calls Himself a Lamb.
He is meek, and He is mild;
He became a little child.
I a child, and thou a lamb,
We are called by His name.
Little Lamb, God bless thee!
Little Lamb, God bless thee!



What's a "Lamb"? I long deemed shepherd as "LORD", so the Lamb should be mankind? But how to understand this poem?
And how to understand "I" here?


Thank you.
JB


The lamb is/could be so many things!

Er....you know a lamb is a baby sheep, right?

Jesus gets known as the Lamb of God.

Lamb of God
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For the band, see Lamb of God (band).
Lamb of God (Latin: Agnus Dei) is one of the titles given to Jesus in the New Testament and consequently in the Christian tradition. It is believed to refer to Jesus' role as a sacrificial lamb atoning for the sins of man in Christian theology, harkening back to ancient Jewish Temple sacrifices in which a lamb was slain during the passover, the blood sprinkled along the door and eaten.



Biblical references
The title is first found twice in the Gospel of John:

The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world." (John 1:29)
The next day John was there again with two of his disciples, and as he watched Jesus walk by, he said, "Behold, the Lamb of God." (John 1:35f)
The image of Jesus as lamb is also very prominent in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is referred to as Lamb twenty-eight times. However, Book of Revelation uses a different Greek word for Lamb: the apocalyptic picture of a ruling and victorious lamb should probably not be read into the title "Lamb of God" in the Gospel of John. However, even if the "Lamb of God" title does not in itself imply victory, Revelation clearly identifies this victorious lamb as having been the sacrificial offering: "you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God" (Rev 5:9).

The title also appears in Acts 8:32, 1 Cor 5:7 (implied), and 1 Peter 1:19.

Also, note that some scholars such as Thomas McElwain consider the belief that Jesus has already paid the whole price for sin as a later belief, one unknown to any of the disciples of the first century. They argue that "the followers of Jesus Christ went on participating in the sacrificial system of the temple in Jerusalem until its destruction in AD 70" and "the apostolic church, for more than a generation after the ascension of Jesus, still offered the Old Testament sacrifices." The Epistle to the Hebrews clearly teaches that Jesus replaces the temple service, its sacrifices and its priests. But they argue that "the historical fact is that such belief came only in connection with the destruction of the temple." The composition of the book of Hebrews has been dated to shortly after the Pauline epistles were collected and began to circulate, circa AD 95 which is after the destruction of the temple.[1]

It means a male without blemish.

Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

[edit]
Background

Adoration of the Mystic Lamb, detail of the Ghent Altarpiece by Jan Van EyckTo fully understand the Biblical significance of the title, it must be understood in the context of earlier lamb symbolism.

The blood of the paschal lamb of the Old Testament protects and saves the Israelites in Exodus 12. This link is made explicit in 1 Corinthians 5:7. For Paul, Christians are saved by Christ as their true paschal lamb.

The Old Testament also testifies to the earlier practice of sin offerings as a possible means of atonement. Lambs could be used in these offerings (e.g. Leviticus 4:32-34 and 5:6), and this link is strongly suggested by John 1:29 and 1 Peter 1:19. Like the sin of a person could be forgiven through the offering and the pouring out of the blood of an "unblemished" lamb (cf. Lev 4:32), so Christians would be freed from sin by the blood of Jesus as the unblemished Lamb of God. See Sin for further discussion about the concept of sin and the means of atonement in Judaism.

Lastly, Christians believe that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus. It is controversial as to how to translate this passage and to whom this passage refers. Some identify the servant as Israel personified arguing that the identity of the servant has already been established by Isaiah in previously stated passages (Isaiah 41 :8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3). According to a Christian translation of the Isaiah 53, the suffering servant remains silent "like a lamb led to the slaughter" (53:7) and "gives his life as an offering for sin" (53:10). Christians add that this link is explicit in Acts 8:32 and strengthens the idea of Jesus as a sin offering.

Geza Vermes posited that the title Lamb of God does not necessarily refer to the metaphor of a sacrificial animal. He points out that in Galilean Aramaic the word talya, literally "lamb," had the common meaning of "male child". This is akin to "kid" meaning "child" in modern colloquial English. The female equivalent of Talya was Talitha, literally "ewe lamb" and figuratively "girl" (the word is found in the Narrative of the Daughter of Jairus). Thus, "Lamb of God" could have been a slang means of saying "Son of God" or "God's Kid".

[edit]
Mass
Lamb of God is also the popular name of a litany beginning with these words used in the Roman Catholic Mass and in the worship services of many other churches. It is said to have been introduced into the Mass by Pope Sergius I (687-701). Based upon John 1: 29, the Latin form (with translation) is:

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.


Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, grant us peace.


This litany is spoken or sung during the Rite of Fraction and Commingling.

In a Requiem Mass, the words "dona nobis pacem" are replaced by "dona eis requiem" (give them rest).

It is also appended to many of the Church's litanies. In the Church of England, it is acceptable for the "Agnus Dei" to be sung in English by the choir during the administration of Holy Communion, provided that the reception of the elements is not delayed till its conclusion.

In the Roman Catholic Church, this name also refers to a small cake made of the wax of the Paschal candle and impressed with this figure. Since the 9th century, it has been customary for the Pope to bless these cakes, and distribute them on the Sunday after Easter among the faithful. In modern times the distribution has been limited to persons of distinction, and is made by the Pope on his accession and every seven years thereafter.



So...the lamb is firstly a lamb, about whom Blake is thinking, and to whom he addresses his poem, and which he contrasts with himself.....the "I" refers both to the author of the poem, and to humanity generally, at the same time....he contrasts sheep and human, at the same time as both are similar in that both are god's creation.





The lamb in christian cultures has the resonances mentioned above, as well as being a byword for innocence and harmlessness plus, since humanity is often seen as the sheep, and god/jesus as the shepherd, the lamb is also us......humanity.


Another scriptural resonance is this (about a prophesied time of goodness and happiness):

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:6







This poem begs to be read with another of Blake's:

The Tiger

TIGER, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder and what art
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand and what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? What dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?

When the stars threw down their spears,
And water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile His work to see?
Did He who made the lamb make thee?

Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 08:48 pm
Quote:
Er....you know a lamb is a baby sheep, right?

Laughing

Yeah sweet with fine taste
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 08:49 pm
Quote:
Agnus Dei


Yes! I have once listened to a piece of music sung by Pavarotti with the title of this!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 08:59 pm
J-B wrote:
Quote:
Agnus Dei


Yes! I have once listened to a piece of music sung by Pavarotti with the title of this!



Wonderful!


But, have my efforts assisted in your understanding of the poem sufficiently?
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 09:02 pm
I have bought a King James Bible from the city's foreign language bookstore. And this is the first time I read your post with a Bible in my hands Smile

Thanks Dlowan.
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 09:03 pm
dlowan wrote:
J-B wrote:
Quote:
Agnus Dei


Yes! I have once listened to a piece of music sung by Pavarotti with the title of this!



Wonderful!


But, have my efforts assisted in your understanding of the poem sufficiently?


Yes. :wink:
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 09:06 pm
Some Shakespeare here.
Quote:
ARRAGON
I am enjoin'd by oath to observe three things:
First, never to unfold to any one
Which casket 'twas I chose; next, if I fail
Of the right casket, never in my life
To woo a maid in way of marriage: Lastly,
If I do fail in fortune of my choice,
Immediately to leave you and be gone.


"Never in my life to woo a maid in way of marriage?"
He will never marry if he fails??
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 09:11 pm
J-B wrote:
Some Shakespeare here.
Quote:
ARRAGON
I am enjoin'd by oath to observe three things:
First, never to unfold to any one
Which casket 'twas I chose; next, if I fail
Of the right casket, never in my life
To woo a maid in way of marriage: Lastly,
If I do fail in fortune of my choice,
Immediately to leave you and be gone.


"Never in my life to woo a maid in way of marriage?"
He will never marry if he fails??



yes.


Shakespeare, eh! Wow!
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 09:02 am
Just found this thread. I'll be back.
0 Replies
 
Debacle
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 11:42 am
Quote:
Shakespeare, eh! Wow!


Aye, Merchant of Venice Act Two, Scene 9.

BTW, Isak Dinesen writing in Winter Tales: Man and woman are two locked caskets, of which each contains the key to the other.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 05:23 pm
Debacle wrote:
Quote:
Shakespeare, eh! Wow!


Aye, Merchant of Venice Act Two, Scene 9.

BTW, Isak Dinesen writing in Winter Tales: Man and woman are two locked caskets, of which each contains the key to the other.



Oy. Thank you....I was wondering which play....(yes, I know, I should have known!)


Nice Dinesen reference! Do you like her?
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 01:38 am
And....any suggestion?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 02:23 am
Er...about what?
0 Replies
 
J-B
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 02:37 am
dlowan wrote:
J-B wrote:
Some Shakespeare here.
Quote:
ARRAGON
I am enjoin'd by oath to observe three things:
First, never to unfold to any one
Which casket 'twas I chose; next, if I fail
Of the right casket, never in my life
To woo a maid in way of marriage: Lastly,
If I do fail in fortune of my choice,
Immediately to leave you and be gone.


"Never in my life to woo a maid in way of marriage?"
He will never marry if he fails??



yes.


Shakespeare, eh! Wow!


Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed

I thought it was an "YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" which just has the same effect of "eh! wow!"

ok.. fine Smile

But why did Portia (or her father) forbide the suitor to have wife if he failed?
0 Replies
 
Debacle
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 02:34 pm
Quote:
But why did Portia (or her father) forbide the suitor to have wife if he failed?


J-B, I believe Portia's father devised that condition as a means of culling from the ranks the weak-willed or trivial suitors. Only those men of merit, those who, while fully aware of the consequences of making a wrong choice nonetheless elected to choose, would be of sufficient mettle for Portia. The condition served to "sweeten the pot" ... or as the saying goes, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
0 Replies
 
Debacle
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jul, 2006 04:07 pm
Quote:
Nice Dinesen reference! Do you like her?


I haven't read much of her stuff, Out of Africa, plus a few odds and ends.

I didn't mean to interrupt the flow of poetry but thought the quote was not too far off topic. Anyway, to round it off and tie it in with the thread, here's the Housman verse which featured in Out of Africa.

To An Athlete Dying Young

The time you won your town the race
We chaired you through the market-place;
Man and boy stood cheering by,
And home we brought you shoulder-high.

To-day, the road all runners come,
Shoulder-high we bring you home,
And set you at your threshold down,
Townsman of a stiller town.

Smart lad, to slip betimes away
From fields where glory does not stay,
And early though the laurel grows
It withers quicker than the rose.

Eyes the shady night has shut
Cannot see the record cut,
And silence sounds no worse than cheers
After earth has stopped the ears:

Now you will not swell the rout
Of lads that wore their honours out,
Runners whom renown outran
And the name died before the man.

So set, before the echoes fade,
The fleet foot on the sill of shade,
And hold to the low lintel up
The still-defended challenge-cup.

And round that early-laurelled head
Will flock to gaze the strengthless dead,
And find unwithered on its curls
The garland briefer than a girl's.
0 Replies
 
 

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