JB learn to appreciate English poems

Quote:

When I consider how my light is spent
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodg'd with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present 5
My true account, lest he returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask. But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies: "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts: who best 10
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is kingly; thousands at his bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest:
They also serve who only stand and wait."

-- John Milton

1. Line 3. What's that "talent"? Is it "light"? Can "light" be a "talent"?
2. Line 7:"Lest He returning chide"? (Maybe I have some problems understanding "lest")
3. Line8:Does "fondly" here mean "foolishly"?
4. Line 12: who (what) are "thousands"?

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J-B wrote:

Quote:
When I consider how my light is spent
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodg'd with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present 5
My true account, lest he returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask. But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies: "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts: who best 10
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is kingly; thousands at his bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest:
They also serve who only stand and wait."

-- John Milton

1. Line 3. What's that "talent"? Is it "light"? Can "light" be a "talent"?
2. Line 7:"Lest He returning chide"? (Maybe I have some problems understanding "lest")
3. Line8:Does "fondly" here mean "foolishly"?
4. Line 12: who (what) are "thousands"?

1. Milton had gone blind......I think this mainly refers to actual light...ie to his blindness, but also I think to how depressed he is by that blindness.

That talent is, I believe, Milton's literary talent, both his poetry which he uses to, in his view, help people to understand god...and, also, I think he did a lot of writing for the parliamentary faction in time leading up to and after the English Civil War ( I will check on that for you later.)

He fears he will be seen by god as like the bad servant in the parable, who buried his talent in the dark (underground).

2. Meaning of lest:

Adv. 1. lest - for fear that; "she tiptoed lest her mother should hear her"
2. lest - that (after verbs explicitly expressing fear etc.); "he worried lest he should be late"

Lest (patience is attempting to change Milton's view, to prevent the chiding from being necessary) when he (god, Milton's maker) returns (at Jesus' Second Coming? See the parable of the talents, below, which is the framing metaphor for the poem...the returning master in the parable is god) he chides (corrects, scolds him) Milton.

3. Yep, I believe that is the meaning (now archaic) that is meant.

4. Thousands of angels, and people who do god's bidding...I would assume.

Parable of the Talents

Matthew 25:14 For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, "Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.' 21 His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' 22 Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, "Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.' 23 His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' 24 And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 "And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.' 26 But his master answered and said to him, "You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 "Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 "Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.' 29 For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NASB)

The main point of this talent is a little more obscure. It could be stated this way: Those who refuse to actively obey God, and put to use the things He has given us, are wicked. This again is a parable which teaches a Kingdom principle. "For it is just like" refers back to 25:1 ... "the Kingdom of heaven will be comparable to" ...

When Jesus spoke this parable, the word "talent" referred to: first, a unit of weight measurement; and second, to a monetary unit. It did not refer, at that time, to a "gifted ability". That modern usage of the term came from application of this parable, in more recent, modern thought. So, in order to understand the parable, let's not read into it our modern mindset, but let the parable speak from its own context of Jesus' days on earth.

The story is about a man who had servants. He was going on a journey, and he entrusted his possessions to them: they were made STEWARDS over his possessions, not owners. One servant was "given" five talents", another was given two, and the third was given one talent. The parable does make an interesting point, which Jesus probably intended us to understand: each of these amounts was given according to the abilities of the servant!

OK, the servant who had been given one talent buried it! He did not DO anything to increase His master's property. The other two servants doubled the amount they had been entrusted with.

The one who did not work and invest himself in increasing his master's property was judged to be wicked.

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Thanks for this comprehensive explanattion dlowan! Very Happy

One great shortcoming for we Chinese reading western literature is that we are so illiterate on Bible. Thanks for the parable

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Quote:

Edmund Waller (1606-1687): Song

Go, lovely rose--
Tell her that wastes her time and me,
That now she knows,
When I resemble her to thee,
How sweet and fair she seems to be.

Tell her that's young,
And shuns to have her graces spied,
That hadst thou sprung
In deserts where no men abide,
Thou must have uncommended died.

Small is the worth
Of beauty from the light retired:
Bid her come forth,
Suffer herself to be desired,
And not blush so to be admired.

Then die!-- that she
The common fate of all things rare
May read in thee;
How small a part of time they share
That are so wondrous sweet and fair!

1. "And shuns to have her graces spied," who shuns to have her graces spied?
2. "light retired"?
3. "SUFFER herself to be desired"?

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J-B wrote:

Quote:
Edmund Waller (1606-1687): Song

Go, lovely rose--
Tell her that wastes her time and me,
That now she knows,
When I resemble her to thee,
How sweet and fair she seems to be.

Tell her that's young,
And shuns to have her graces spied,
That hadst thou sprung
In deserts where no men abide,
Thou must have uncommended died.

Small is the worth
Of beauty from the light retired:
Bid her come forth,
Suffer herself to be desired,
And not blush so to be admired.

Then die!-- that she
The common fate of all things rare
May read in thee;
How small a part of time they share
That are so wondrous sweet and fair!

1. "And shuns to have her graces spied," who shuns to have her graces spied?
2. "light retired"?
3. "SUFFER herself to be desired"?

1. The woman of whom Waller is writing his poem.

2. "from the light retired" means hiding from the light, shunning the light...ie shy and retiring.

3. Allow herself to be desired.

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Quote:

1. The woman of whom Waller is writing his poem.

Tell her that's young,
And shuns to have her graces spied,

But how could the latter line connect with the first?

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J-B wrote:

Quote:
1. The woman of whom Waller is writing his poem.

Tell her that's young,
And shuns to have her graces spied,

But how could the latter line connect with the first?

Er...

Not sure what you mean...however, I will try to explain the stanza.

He asks the rose to tell her (the woman in the first stanza: " her that wastes her time and me"), who is young, and does not wish to have her graces looked at, that, through his comparison of her with the rose, sh eshould now understand how sweet and fair he thinks her to be.

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Can I add that "waste" in this poem has complex meanings...look here:

v., wast·ed, wast·ing, wastes.

v.tr.
To use, consume, spend, or expend thoughtlessly or carelessly.
To cause to lose energy, strength, or vigor; exhaust, tire, or enfeeble: Disease wasted his body.
To fail to take advantage of or use for profit; lose: waste an opportunity.

To destroy completely.
Slang. To kill; murder.
v.intr.
To lose energy, strength, weight, or vigor; become weak or enfeebled: wasting away from an illness.
To pass without being put to use: Time is wasting.
n.
The act or an instance of wasting or the condition of being wasted: a waste of talent; gone to waste.
A place, region, or land that is uninhabited or uncultivated; a desert or wilderness.
A devastated or destroyed region, town, or building; a ruin.

I think it combines the meanings I have bolded......see how it echoes with the desert he also mentions?

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You might be able to find a poetry website that discusses poems. I did a brief look and found this one but, unfortunately, there was no discussion on this particular poem.

Part of your difficulty JB is that some English words have changed and evolved their meanings over the centuries. In the first poem, for example, the word "light" could refer to sunlight, day (sunlight time), eyes (very common in Elizabethan times, although Milton is writing at a later time), or spies (eyes of the state). And to further complicate things, poets like to obscure and use double-entendres, of course.

The poets that you're reading are also writing in a time when any serious theme had to be expressed through biblical allusions -- to be accepted by the authorities. You've noted that the lack of biblical knowledge is causing you difficulties. Northrop Frye claims that to really understand English literature you need a sound base in three things ~ Greek mythology, the Bible, and Shakespeare. That's an awful lot of work for someone.

I wonder if you should start with more modern poets and work backward?

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Oh, very good on the waste = desert allusion! I didn't catch that myself.

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Tico...spies? I didn't catch that allusion in the Milton at all...can you expand on your reasons for saying that?

JB......I adore the poetry you are working through.

I understand why Tico is saying what he? she? is saying, but I am so happy to help you through, as, no doubt, are many others! The richness of the allusions are partly what makes this stuff, so lovely....

Have you, by the way, read the King James Bible?

It is often now included in literatire courses, since it is a masterpiece of Jacobean English.

It is a cinch to find online, and you will understand more of English literature if you read it........I a mvery happy to help with the language, if you decide to plough your way through.

Of course, then you must read Shakespeare.....I am happy to brush up on his language to help you through that, too!

Oh, and JB, I so admire you for tackling poetry in a foreign language.

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Tico wrote:

Northrop Frye claims that to really understand English literature you need a sound base in three things ~ Greek mythology, the Bible, and Shakespeare. That's an awful lot of work for someone.

Awesome... Confused

It's more awesome that you have determined what I am going to do in my next year, Tico...

Quote:

I wonder if you should start with more modern poets and work backward?

Precisely because that modern poems are easier I don't find much need to raise questions about them Smile

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dlowan wrote:

Tico...spies? I didn't catch that allusion in the Milton at all...can you expand on your reasons for saying that?

JB......I adore the poetry you are working through.

I understand why Tico is saying what he? she? is saying, but I am so happy to help you through, as, no doubt, are many others! The richness of the allusions are partly what makes this stuff, so lovely....

Have you, by the way, read the King James Bible?

It is often now included in literatire courses, since it is a masterpiece of Jacobean English.

It is a cinch to find online, and you will understand more of English literature if you read it........I a mvery happy to help with the language, if you decide to plough your way through.

Of course, then you must read Shakespeare.....I am happy to brush up on his language to help you through that, too!

Oh, and JB, I so admire you for tackling poetry in a foreign language.

Really thank for that, dlowan. Hope poetry can make really every one happy here Smile

As I say in the previous post, I am going to study Shakespear and Greek Mythology and Bible. I am serious. Since I have been long planning for them and I will see this time as a really stimulating chance Smile

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You're amazing, J-B!

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dlowan wrote:

Tico...spies? I didn't catch that allusion in the Milton at all...can you expand on your reasons for saying that?

Sorry ... went too far. I was just trying to illustrate how one word can have not only many meanings but also change it's meaning over time and even become "code" for a specific period.

(she says)

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Can anyone tell me how to pronounce the work by Virgil, "Aeneid"?

Thank you

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Short answer from me is I don't know.

Here are some interesting links, though:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/latinlanguage/qt/latinpronounce.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A657272

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No stop it dlowan, I cannot be overburdened now. Learn Latin pronounciation?! I have my limits Very Happy

Anyway, thank you very much Smile

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Quote:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

-- William Butler Yeats

Frankly speaking, this The Second Coming is my favourite poem so far. I first time heard it with a few lines in the movie Nixon. And First time I read it as a whole, as I probably said before, I was tucked into the bed--- And it cost me a great deal of sleep time.

This poem is, powerful.

In the first part, with a lost falcon, a collapsing world, a blood-dimmed tide, successfully and forcefully created a vision of Apocalypse.
Who will save us from this gloomy end?
Christ?
No, the second part quickly denied this suggestion. It's effect is even more chilling, by depicting the returning of Jesus Christ as a lonely, ghastly sphinx, a rough beast, "slouching", against a backdrop of a vast, spooky, desert.
The whole poem is just so frustrating, it's like saying "See, that's the end of all time, all living, and you shouldn't expect anyone, anything to save you, because they might be more evil."
But as I said, it is powerful as well.

This is my first time try to analyze, or simply say something on a poem. (I think I should do much more if I really want to analyze it. Oh maybe I just shouldn't analyze it?) Have I grasped the general feeling of this poem correctly?

BTW, what does Spiritus Mundi mean?

Thank you. JB

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JB learn to appreciate English poems

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