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sidetrack to: ...spiritual awakening, insults and mockery

 
 
Cyracuz
 
Reply Tue 13 Jun, 2006 03:03 pm
In the thread "did you have a spiritual awakening", launched by snood, spendius made a remark that was unrelated to the subject, but even so a claim I think is worth some debate. What he wrote was:

Quote:
Just wanna mention a thread doesn't go south by itself; it gets dragged that way by folks functionally unable to differentiate exhange and criticism of idea from personal attack.


First off, I agree with this statement. But I immediately wonder who he's referring to by folks. Wich side of the exchange are they on?

Sometimes reasonable questions are taken with great injury to our pride and our sense of achievement, and we miss the point that was made.

In failing to grasp the intended information, we grasp the insult and spin on it.
It may be pride that causes our tounges to flare with unreasonable mockery.
But is it not pride also that causes our hearts to hearken to the insult rather than to the reasonable argument that was included in the same sentence?

As I see it, the most rewarding thing to do in a debate is to disregard any insult, implied or indeed present. Sometimes it's a real challenge, but it can also be a great rethorical advantage to not lose your composition when provoked.

But it comes down to what we want to hear as much as what we want to say, and to the endurance and course of a healthy debate both is equally harmful.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,307 • Replies: 41
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jun, 2006 03:14 pm
Ain't easy to do...and ain't always the wise or proper move no matter how much it may seem that it should be.

I was involved in the mess that happened over in the thread to which you make reference.

I posted a courteous, apporpriate remark that was completely on subject.

At some point...a poster posted a comment that I considered worthy of debate...and I commented on it.

The poster immediately got in a snit (which he does in damn near every thread in which he is a participant)...and called me silly.

I banged him back; he banged me back; I banged him back; he banged me back.

The thread was locked for a while...and has now been reopened.

I will not respond to his last remark in that thread.

But it makes as much sense to counter a jab with a jab...as to simply overlook it as you suggest.

There truly is no intrinsic value to allowing someone to take a shot at you...and not hitting back...no matter that many people seem to think that doing the former is somehow superior to the latter.

Willing to discuss.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jun, 2006 03:22 pm
Hilarious Frank . . . you are always so reasonable, and those who disagree with you "get in a snit" . . . you shovel horseshit faster than many a farm boy i've seen . . .
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jun, 2006 03:23 pm
By the way, Frank, you mentioned me by name when responding to someone else, so you got what you had asked for . . .
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jun, 2006 03:24 pm
Re: sidetrack to: ...spiritual awakening, insults and mocker
Cyracuz wrote:
In the thread "did you have a spiritual awakening", launched by snood, spendius made a remark that was unrelated to the subject, but even so a claim I think is worth some debate. What he wrote was:

Quote:
Just wanna mention a thread doesn't go south by itself; it gets dragged that way by folks functionally unable to differentiate exhange and criticism of idea from personal attack.

That wasn't spendi, he was quoting me.

Quote:
First off, I agree with this statement. But I immediately wonder who he's referring to by folks.

Any who play the game that way.

Quote:
Wich side of the exchange are they on?

Both - its an equal opportunity failing.

Quote:
Sometimes reasonable questions are taken with great injury to our pride and our sense of achievement, and we miss the point that was made.

In failing to grasp the intended information, we grasp the insult and spin on it.

I think it often the case insult is perceived where none was presented. Not always, to be certain, but often. All too frequently, one who's statement is challenged will react as though an attack on that statement's presenter had been perpetrated.

Quote:
It may be pride that causes our tounges to flare with unreasonable mockery.
But is it not pride also that causes our hearts to hearken to the insult rather than to the reasonable argument that was included in the same sentence?

IMO, yup.

Quote:
As I see it, the most rewarding thing to do in a debate is to disregard any insult, implied or indeed present. Sometimes it's a real challenge, but it can also be a great rethorical advantage to not lose your composition when provoked.

But it comes down to what we want to hear as much as what we want to say, and to the endurance and course of a healthy debate both is equally harmful.

And yup again.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jun, 2006 03:55 pm
Frank wrote:
Quote:
But it makes as much sense to counter a jab with a jab...as to simply overlook it as you suggest.


Agreed. But it doesn't make sense to counter harmless blows.

Quote:
There truly is no intrinsic value to allowing someone to take a shot at you...and not hitting back...no matter that many people seem to think that doing the former is somehow superior to the latter.


Without drawing assumptions about anyone's reasons for participating, I am resigned to the idea that it depends on what we're all in it for. Maybe it's not about superior or inferior method, just about what we find most beneficial then and there.

Personally I am not such a fan of sugar coated words on cotton clouds. Sometimes I need a little gravel and spit to get my gears churning. But I don't like it when it derails the entire debate.


Timber
Sorry for the mixup. There was a lot going on over there Confused
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jun, 2006 04:26 pm
Nothin' like a good word fight, I always say.

I'll just sit over here and watch. Smile
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 09:39 am
Thread's open. Gentlemen! Start your invectives!
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 09:56 am
Oh, c'mon, now Neo - I think we'd all prefer to see that not happen ... though of course, life is full of stuff we'd prefer it not be.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 10:35 am
OK - I'm nobody here....but I'm gonna say my bit.

Cyracuz - I understand exactly what you're getting at, but unfortunately this thread was doomed from the start. To me, the 2nd post was proof of that.

When I say I'm nobody here, I mean in the sense as to knowing who the players are and where they are coming from when get involved in all this back and forth, which always leads nowhere in my opinion. At one point, I used to think that when insults were being swapped it was some kind of inside joke (jeez maybe it is, and I still don't get it).

Then, when once the hacking and spitting was directed toward me and I said basically...ok, ok, whatever, enough's enough....and it continued, I thought to myself "Wow, this persons really serious, he's really meaning the ugly things he's saying to me".

Somewhere before that, I had lost a lot of respect for a few regulars, not like they cared...but it meant something to me. It meant I no longer felt I had to waste my time reading their posts.

Right from the get go here, Frank and Set and I'm sure others who will come along shortly will start doing their usual thing. That's fine, I don't have to read it.

However, I thought Cyracuz first post was interesting and might open some dialogue.
Immediatley though it starts in with the "well, I was being respectful, then someone else came along and started it"

my first thought was, wow....couldn't wait, could ya....that was the start of this thread "going south"

I've gotten to the point I don't even pay attention, but still, it's irksome when the pumphouse gang shows up on an interesting thread that I'm learning from, and within a page it's monkey feces being flung back and forth....the thread never gets back on track after that. Now it's all about who said what.

toying with the idea of a thread entitled "All Potshots, All the Time"

Like I said though, as far as this stuff goes, I'm obviously not qualified. So instead I use the scroll wheel.
0 Replies
 
Synonymph
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 10:56 am
http://www.muppetcentral.com/guides/episodes/tms/season1/pics/1_statler_waldorf.jpg
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 11:22 am
Now that was worth a good laugh Laughing
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 11:29 am
Dang it nymph - I still can't see your images!

(and I really WANT to see your images....<insert lecherous laughter here>)
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 11:37 am
snood wrote:
Dang it nymph - I still can't see your images!

(and I really WANT to see your images....<insert>)

Whatever turns ya on - here's the image you can't see:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7222/1statlerwaldorf4dd.jpg
0 Replies
 
Synonymph
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 11:49 am
My, what a big firewall you have, snood.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 12:19 pm
Chai Tea wrote:
. . . When I say I'm nobody here, I mean in the sense as to knowing who the players are and where they are coming from when get involved in all this back and forth, which always leads nowhere in my opinion. At one point, I used to think that when insults were being swapped it was some kind of inside joke (jeez maybe it is, and I still don't get it). . .
You mean it's not a joke? I'd sure hate to be taking any of this seriously.

But I will admit that much of the criticism my posts have endured has served to sharpen my rhetorical skills. So long as I keep that perspective, folks can kick, spit and bite all they want. My skin is thick and I won't often return in kind.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 12:21 pm
Neo, you ignorant slut ! ! !

It ain't but electrons we throw at one another. The only long-term damage would likely arise form spending too much time in front of a CRT.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 12:26 pm
Yeah, but I have to sit at an angle from the tube because of you, you . . whippersnapper.
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 12:27 pm
Setanta wrote:
Neo, you ignorant slut ! ! !

It ain't but electrons we throw at one another. The only long-term damage would likely arise form spending too much time in front of a CRT.



You may be right....but I think there are those who do take it seriously.

Neo - If it's a joke, doesn't it get old after awhile?

Like I said, I honestly don't follow the upheavals, I just notice them as I scan trying to find the meat of the matter. sorry, but it just gets really predictible.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 12:33 pm
Chai, plain and simple; if ya ain't havin' fun, yer doin' it wrong.
0 Replies
 
 

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