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Lula vs FHC revisited

 
 
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 06:58 pm
Ok, I wanna try this again, this time I'm supposed to nicer and more open minded e tal.

The reason I am reminded of this si because while looking at an old emaila ccount I found emails from the campaign. Mostly drek and I'll post them without translating for now (if anyone is interested I'll do a fast translation).

Let me know if you are interested.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 11,062 • Replies: 55
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 06:59 pm
Existem 2 Lulas candidatos a Presidente. Em qual deles você pretende votar?

1) No Lula a favor da propriedade:

"Você que tem a sua terra e produz, saiba que um governo do PT não vai toler ar desrespeito à sua propriedade". (Revista Veja - Abril 2002)?

Ou no Lula a favor das invasões de terra: "Onde tiver um terreno vazio o trabalhador sem moradia deve invadir." (Revista Veja, Maio/1989)?

2) No Lula aliado de Quércia, PL e Sarney:
"Se o povo de São Paulo for inteligente irá votar em Quércia". (Congresso da Confederação das Mulheres do Brasil, 15/Set/2002, SP)?
Ou no Lula da oposição: "Não abro mão das divergências que tenho com Quércia. O PT não vai fazer aliança com ele. As alianças são como os partidos." (Revista Época - Janeiro de 2002)?

3) No Lula a favor da Constituição:

"Veja, o Brasil é um país que tem uma Constituição, um país que está com sua democracia se consolidando." (CBN, 24/Maio/2001)?

Ou no Lula que votou contra a Constituição de 1988: "A 3ª Constituição foi aprovada por 474 votos a favor e 15 votos contra, todos do PT. Lula, anunciou que o partido votou contra a aprovação da Constituição por causa da reforma agrária, da manutenção da tutela dos militares e dos privilégios das classes dominantes". (Jornal do Brasil, 23/09/1988)?

4) No Lula que promete criar dez milhões de empregos:

"Reafirmo o que tenho dito desde o início da campanha: vamos criar dez milhões de empregos" (Globo On Line, 31/ Ago/2002)?

Ou no Lula que desconversa: "Quando lancei meu programa de governo, nós não prometemos criar um número exato de empregos" (Globo On Line 11/Set/2002)?

5) No Lula defende o Congresso: Por mais que a gente queira fazer críticas ao Congresso, vamos ter q ue entender que o Congresso eleito no dia 6 de outubro é a cara da consciência política do nosso povo no dia do seu voto. Por menos que você goste de um deputado, ele está lá porque representa um segmento da sociedade e precisa ser respeitado. (O Globo 28/Set/2002)?

Ou no Lula que critica o Congresso: "Acho que o Congresso não representa condignamente a sociedade brasileira. Muita gente vota só porque é obrigada . O Congresso tem uma parcela fictícia". (O Globo, 10/Ago/1999)?

6) No Lula que elogia o regime militar:
"O Brasil já foi pensa do enquanto nação. Do ponto de vista do pensamento estratégico os militares pensaram o Brasil. Fizeram distribuição de renda, deixaram d ívida, mas pensaram". (Jornal da Tarde, 31/Ago/2002)?

Ou no Lula que lutou contra a ditadura?

"Sou uma espécie de metamorfose ambulante"
(Lula, Revista Veja, Outubro de 2001)

É essa a mudança que você quer?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 06:59 pm
Subject: [emba45] Atenção ---- Direito de sucessão (Programa do PT)



> Prezado Sr. Augusto Campos
> Provavelmente o Senhor Também recebeu o E-mail abaixo e deve ter uma
> resposta para tal afirmação, eu como Brasileiro, independente de partido
> político, fico preocupado com este tipo de informação circulando, gostaria
> de ficar um pouco menos preocupado, qualquer informação sobre o assunto
será
> bem recebida e devidamente re-encaminha se o conteúdo for esclarecedor ...
> grato!
>
>
> Clovis Tadeu David -home
>
> Fiquem espertos!!
> Direito de sucessão (Programa do PT)
> Você sabia que o Programa do PT prevê o fim do Direito de sucessão, que e
a
> aquisição da propriedade imóvel pelo direito hereditário? Isso está
previsto
> no Art. 530, IV, do Código Civil Brasileiro.
> Isso quer dizer que a casa(propriedade)do seu pai não ficará para você,
mas
> para o Estado. E tal alteração pode ser feita por Medida Provisória, pois
> não é garantida em nossa Constituição, que assegura apenas o direito de
> propriedade, não o de sucessão hereditária.
> As casas do DMAB, construídas pela Prefeitura de Poá, já são assim. O
> cidadão só tem a posse, nunca a propriedade. Quando morre, a propriedade
> volta para a Prefeitura. Ontem na TV, Lula já admitiu seu desejo de uma
> sociedade socialista...
> Então se você for votar no Lula , reflita e se informe sobre o assunto no
> próprio programa do PT. Não aceite desculpas que te soneguem a obtenção
> desta informação. Você vai comprovar que e isto mesmo!!!
> Passe esse e-mail para todas as pessoas que você conhece, informando.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 07:00 pm
Já que a campanha está deflagrada via internet e estamos numa democracia, é preciso dar espaços iguais a todos.

Você é um diretor de uma empresa e recebe dois currículos para analisar:

currículo A:
* Escolaridade:
Até a 5º Série do ensino fundamental
Curso de torneiro mecânico do SENAI
* Experiência Profissional:
Fábrica de Parafusos Marte
Metalúrgica Independente
Metalúrgica Villares
Deputado Federal


Currículo B:
* Escolaridade
Engenheiro Civil pela Escola Politécnica de São Paulo
Mestrado em Ciência Econômica pela Universidade do Chile
Doutorado em Economia pela Universidade de Cornell, nos EUA
* Experiência Profissional:
Presidente da UNE
Professor e Pesquisador da Comissão para a América Latina da ONU
Professor e pesquisador do Instituto de Economia da Universidade do Chile
Professor do Instituto de Estudos Avançados da Universidade de Princeton
Professor da Unicamp
Secretário de Planejamento do Estado de São Paulo
Deputado Federal
Ministro do Planejamento
Ministro da Saúde

O cargo pleiteado é:
Gerente da sua empresa que tem as seguintes características:
Faturamento anual de cerca de 500 bilhões de dólares
Cerca de 170 milhões de funcionários
É dona de uma das maiores reservas minerais do mundo
É dona da maior área florestal do mundo
É dona de boa parte dos recursos hídricos aproveitáveis do mundo
Tem o controle de um dos maiores mercados de informática do mundo
É a maior empresa em faturamento e tamanho de seu continente

Pois é, a empresa sobre a qual falamos chama-se Brasil, e os candidatos são respectivamente Lula e José Serra.
O diretor da empresa é você. Cabe a você escolher quem será o gerente desta sua empresa pelos próximos quatro anos. Saiba que a sua participação nos lucros desta empresa depende de como este gerente performará. É um cargo de extrema responsabilidade e com potencial para grandes feitos.
Quem sua empresa irá escolher, você decide!!!
Boa sorte!
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 07:01 pm
They are all anti Lula, because they are from my students and my students were from a class that is almost exclusively anti-Lula.
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 09:49 pm
Craven - a confession. Although I really didn't get much out of what you said (a word, a phrase here and there) I really like the Portuguese language. I like the way it looks, sounds, reads. Although I suspect yours is Brasilian, whereas I am more familiar with Portugal, and there are differences.

Nonetheless, at the end of a day filled with correspondence, it was very restful for me to come across this. Now, if only I knew what you said. But I do know who Lulas is. They are also one of my favorite foods.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 10:08 pm
In Japan it's called taco (sp). Twas confusing for a tot that loved mexican food and hated seafood.

In Brazil my friends used to eat squid at kiosks on the beach a lot.
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 10:25 pm
And in Portugal there are almost as many squid dishes as there are for bacalao. I make a mean bacalao a bras. That's funny about taco in Japan, since Portugal had such close, early ties with them, including the culinary.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:17 pm
Well at least "bread" is not a false cognate with Japanese and Portuguese.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 10:15 am
You can always say Lula is dialectic! Let's hope Lula I prevails over Lula II.

I distrust anyone who compares a nation to a corporation.

What is really telling is Lula's opinion about the military. "O Brasil já foi pensa do enquanto nação. Do ponto de vista do pensamento estratégico os militares pensaram o Brasil. Fizeram distribuição de renda, deixaram dívida, mas pensaram".
Nationalism and income distribution intentions (but not rality, and it is weird that he said so, Brazilian generals helped into making Brazil one of the most unequal countries on earth) seem more important than sound economics, human rights or democracy.

Doesn't Lula understand the evil effect of high indebtedness? Doesn't he know that the "lost decade" of the eighties was due to debt in the 70s? Weren't he and his metalmechanic comrades mad at the situation?

And what about "pau d'arara", one of Brazil's contributions to world torture? No betterment of income distribution, real or imagined, is worth a minute of pau d'arara.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 06:03 pm
What the heck is "pau d'arara"? My translation program just translates it as wood d'arara.

For all the others who do not understand Portuguese - my program says this is what Lula said about the military:

What is really telling is Lula's opinion about the military. "Brazil
already was thinks of while the nation. Of the point of view of the
strategical thought the military had thought Brazil. They had made
income distribution, had left debt, but they had thought.

I THINK I get it...
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 06:12 pm
Rotten translation form computers of earlier Portuguese: (computers suck at translation!)

2 Squids exist candidates the President. In which of them you intend to vote? 1) In the Squid in favor of the property: "You who have its land and produce, it knows that a government of the PT does not go to toler air disrespect to its property". (Magazine Sees - April 2002)?
Or in the Squid in favor of the land invasions: "Where he will have an empty land the worker without housing must invade." (Magazine Sees,
Maio/1989)? 2) In the Squid ally of Quércia, PL and Sarney: "If the
people of São Paulo will be intelligent will go to vote in Quércia".
(Congress of the Confederation of the Women of Brazil, 15/Set/2002,
SP)? Or in the Squid of the opposition: "I do not open hand of the
divergences that I have with Quércia. The PT does not go to make
alliance with it. The alliances are as the parties." (Magazine Time -
January of 2002)?
3) In the Squid in favor of the Constitution: "It sees, Brazil is a
country that has a Constitution, a country that is with its democracy
if consolidating." (CBN, 24/Maio/2001)? Or in the Squid that voted
against the Constitution of 1988: "3ª Constitution was approved by 474
votes the favor and 15 votes against, all of the PT. Squid, announced
that the party voted against the approval of the Constitution because
of the agrarian reform, of the maintenance of the guardianship of the
military and the privileges of the ruling classes ". (Periodical of
Brazil, 23/09/1988)? 4) In the Squid that promises to create ten
million jobs: "I reaffirm what I have said since the beginning of the
campaign: we go to create ten million jobs "(Globe On Line, 31/
Ago/2002)?

Or in the Squid that breaks off conversation: "When I launched my
program of government, us we do not promise to create an accurate
number of jobs" (Globe On Line 11/Set/2002)? 5) In the Squid the
Congress defends: No matter how hard people want to make critical the
Congress, we go to have q ue to understand that the elect Congress in
day 6 of October is the face of the conscience politics of our people
in the day of its vote. For less than you it likes a member of the
house of representatives, it it is there because it represents a
segment of the society and needs to be respected. (The Globe
28/Set/2002)? Or in the Squid that criticizes the Congress: "I find
that the Congress does not represent the Brazilian society
condignamente. Much people only vote because she is obliged. The
Congress has a fictitious parcel ". (The Globe, 10/Ago/1999)? 6) In
the Squid that praises the military regimen: "Brazil already was
thinks of while the nation. Of the point of view of the strategical
thought the military had thought Brazil. They had made income
distribution, had left ívida d, but they had thought ". (Periodical
of the Afternoon, 31/Ago/20
Or in the Squid that fought against the dictatorship? "I am a species
of ambulant metamorphosis" (Squid, Magazine See, October of 2001) Is
this the change that you want?


(Think I managed to get it all)
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 06:16 pm
Second post:

Subject: [ emba45 ] Attention Right from succession (Program of the
PT) > Prezado August Mr. Fields > Probably Mr. Também received the
email below and must have one > reply for such affirmation, I eats
Brazilian, independent of party > politician, is worried about this
type of information circulating, would like > to be a little less
worried, any information on the subject will be > received well and
duly re-it directs if the content will be enlightening... > grateful!
> > > Clovis Tadeu David - home

They are smart! > Right of succession (Program of the PT) > You wise
person who the Program of the PT foresees the end of the Right of
succession, that and > acquisition of the real state property for the
hereditary right? This is foreseen > in Art. 530, IV, of the Brazilian
Civil Code > This wants to say that casa(propriedade)do its father
will not be for you, but > for the State. E such alteration can be
made by Provisional remedy, therefore > is not guaranteed in our
Constitution, that assures only the right of > property, not it of
hereditary succession > the houses of the DMAB, constructed for the
City hall of Poá, already they are thus. > citizen alone has the
ownership, never the property. When it dies, the property > return for
the City hall. Yesterday in the TV, Squid already > admitted its
desire of one socialist society... > Then if you it will be to vote in
the Squid, it reflects and if it informs on the subject in > proper
program of the PT. It has not accepted excuses that evade taxes you
the attainment > of this informaç
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 06:16 pm
I'm not sure what fbaezer means but I believe that he is speaking of a method of torture in which a metal bar was shoved down one's urethra so as to deliver electric shocks to the inside of the penis.

fbaezer claims this is a Brazilian invention but in Brazil they claim it was Americans who taught the dictatorship to torture. I'm not sure on which is true but there is interesting evidence to suggest that Americans (most likely without the sanction of their government) helped train some Brazilians in the "art" of torture.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 06:22 pm
Post three:
Since the campaign is deflagrada way InterNet and is in a democracy,
she is necessary to give equal spaces to all. You he is a director of
a company and receives two resumes to analyze: resume: * Escolaridade:
Until 5º Series of basic education Course of mechanical torneiro of
the SENAI * Professional Experience: Plant of Metallurgic Mars Screws
Independent Villares Steel mill Representative

Resume B: * Escolaridade Civil Engineer for the Polytechnical School
of São Paulo Mestrado in Economic Science for the University of Chile
Doutorado in Economy for the University of Cornell, in U.S.A. *
Professional Experience: President of JOINS Professor and Researcher
of the Commission for Latin America of the ONU Professor and
researcher of the Institute of Economy of the University of Chile
Professor of the Institute of Advanced Studies of the University of
Princeton Professor of the Unicamp Secretary of Planning of the State
of São Paulo Representative Minister of the Planning Minister of the
Health the pled position is: Manager of its company who has the
following characteristics: Annual invoicing of about 500 billion
dollar About 170 million employees Is owner of one of the biggest
mineral reserves of the world Is owner of the biggest forest area of
the world Is owner of good part of the usable hídricos resources of
the world Has the control of one of the biggest markets of computer science of the world Is the biggest
company in invoicing and size of its continent


Therefore he is, the company on which we speak calls Brazil, and the
candidates are respectively Lula and Jose Mountain range. The director
of the company is you. You fit to choose who you will be the manager
of this its company per next the four years. It knows that its profit
sharing of this company depends on as this manager will performará.
It is a position of extreme responsibility and with potential for
great made. Who its company will go to choose, you decides! Good luck!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 06:24 pm
I am interested - but likely to remain very quiet!

What are all these "squids"?

What is the FHC?

can you give a little more context to these emails?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 06:26 pm
Hmmmmm - some things have many parents - some none.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 06:29 pm
I gotta leave the office and do some work but I'll translate them later.

Squid = Lula, his name also means squid. FHC is the previous president.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 06:35 pm
Pau d'Arara: "Parrot's stick".

The torturer ties the prisoner to a metallic stick, by the wrists and ankles. The body is kept hanging. Electric shock is delivered through the stick. Optional connections wire the Pau d'Arara to the testicles, the vagina or the zone behind the tongue of the prisoner.

It was called that way, because it would make the prisoners talk like parrots.

---

While Pau d'Arara is documented, some left-wing urban legends about Brazilian torture circulated widely in the 70s- 80s.
Like the plastic surgeon torturer who sealed the mouth of a woman, leaving only a little hole from where she could suck liquids or watered-down food... or the dentist tortured who would take away the teeth of the prisoners and replace them with dog's teeth.
I mean, Brazilian torturers were considered "tops" in physical pain.

----

American involvement is totally true. But it is said that the students surpassed the teachers.
The Tupamaros (Uruguayan guerrilla) became famous for the kidnapping, and later the assasination, of Dan Mitrione, a CIA agent who worked for the Secret Police.
Costa-Gavras' film "Etat de Siege" is based on this episode.

In 1978-79 I lived in Northwest Mexico. One of the inhabitants of the building was an American Vietnam Veteran -married to a nice Vietnamese woman- who worked assisting the State's Judicial Police on "investigative methods". Every one said he was a "torture teacher".
Not surprisingly, a few years later, cases of torture by that States Judicial Police -not only against drug traffickers, who had infested it in the early 70s, but against local youths- were known to the public.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 06:43 pm
I had understood the USA to teach torture - from some special ops sort of group - but I have forgotten why I believe this.
0 Replies
 
 

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