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Guantanamo suicides confirmed

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 01:57 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Do you really think I can quote you without reading?


Apparently, yes.

Otherwise, I can find no reasoning behind why you would ask "So you agree that such can be done to US-citizens as well?".
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 03:23 pm
Detano forgets( Because he does not want to remember?) that in the USA, when members of our military violate the Military Code, they are subject to Court Martials and Imprisonment. When there were ""horrible crimes" committed in Abu Ghirab--such as letting a dog come close to a prisoner and snarl at him--those military were court martialed. It is the same with the Marines that murdered the Iraqi civilians.

Detano does not want to admit that the US runs by the "rule of law". Court Martials have been and are being held in the case of soldiers and marines that did not follow proper military procedures.

The Supreme Court, something that Detano does not know about or, if he knows, does not want to discuss because it completely invalidates his argument is ,at present ,adjudicating the status of the Guantanamo prisoners.

What Detano will not talk about is the efficient method of "rule of law" followed by the Islamo-Fascist fanatics. They have no long wait time until they solve a problem..After being held for a couple of days, their prisoners are subject to their rule of law--Beheading--WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A HEARING OR A TRIAL!!!
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 06:03 pm
BernardR wrote:
Detano forgets( Because he does not want to remember?) that in the USA, when members of our military violate the Military Code, they are subject to Court Martials and Imprisonment. When there were ""horrible crimes" committed in Abu Ghirab--such as letting a dog come close to a prisoner and snarl at him--those military were court martialed. It is the same with the Marines that murdered the Iraqi civilians.

.
A snarling dog is all you can remember of Abu Ghraib? "horrible crimes" in quotation marks? Does that mean you are making fun of them?
Locking up a dozen morons does not solve anything. These "bad apples" created thousands of insurgents and much disgust among the Iraqi people.
.
The 15000-20000 civilians who were killed by US troops are legal casualties.
The kids who are born deformed (DU) are legal casualties. The ones who have their hand blown off by cluster ammunition are OK too.
The tragic part of all this is that these victims had nothing to do with 9/11. I guess somebody had to be punished, so it's OK too.
.
Let me repeat: I find all terrorists who kill innocents just as repugnant as criminals and murderers. In my book all murderers are guilty, whether they are wearing a uniform or not.
.
It would be good for you and me to see this British film together. I would like to hear your comments on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Guantanamo
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 08:57 pm
Good evening.
The source for this commentary is National Public Radio (npr.org) and then Morning Edition for June 27th.
The subject is "Torture." Described, I guess, in some recent posts.

I am not a fan of cutting and pasting long stories. No one reads them. I prefer the poster's summary but with a reference.
NPR started a series on Monday about "torture."
First up was Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz.
His argument was that torture has been used in the past and will be used in the future. We may deny that we use torture, but we do. And, perhaps, it is justifed, he seems to say. If some guy plants a time bomb but we don't know where it is or when it will go off...but we have the guy who does know.
Deshowitz maintains that the government should create rules on when and how torture should be carried out, and the responsibility should be at the top of the chain of command. Not with some some dog handler.

Again, this is just a brief summary. If you want to respond, please first visit the source for the full discussion.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 09:54 pm
Detano gives a figure of 15000 to 20000 Iraqis killed by American Troops but gives no evidence. With no evidence, I think he is exaggerating.

Detano may be too young to remember the dropping of the Atomic Bombs on Japan. Those acts were justified by the number of lives that would be saved in the future. 100,000 Japanese were killed instantly in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
'
Would Detano like to tell us that fewer than 15000 to 20000 Iraqis would have died at the hands of Saddam Hussein? Hussein killed thousands and the world knows that the removal of the tryant will in the long run save lives.

Detano does not like torture. Who does? If Senator McCain, who was tortured by the VietCong becomes president, will there be any more torture?

Yes, under some circumstances he would approve torture.

He would approve tortutre if it was known that a subject knew of an attack that would kill hundreds, perhaps thousands.

The ethics of that falls under torture to save thousands of lives but Detano probably doesn't understand that-It may be too difficult for him to think in such terms!!!
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jun, 2006 05:52 am
Anyone who talks about torture and ethics should go back to the pictures that came out of Abu Ghraib. Rumsfeld was furious, not because of the torture, but because the pictures were out in the open. So much for ethics.
.
As for the body count in Iraq, I go by official statistics. Of course you are allowed to deny it, you are a Republican.
.
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
.
.........................
The theory of killing 214 000 civilians to save 100 000 later on is Pentagon talk gone mad.
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
0 Replies
 
SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jun, 2006 07:45 am
SCAPEGOATING GUANTANAMO

By Victor Davis Hanson

When President Bush arrived in Vienna last week, protestors bore "World's No. 1 Terrorist" signs while chanting "We will, we will fight Bush." A Harris Poll conducted prior to the president's visit revealed that the European public thinks America is a greater global threat than either North Korea or Iran.

Apparently, our terrorist detention center at Guantanamo Bay is the most recent open sore. When, European ministers have been persisting, will the United States close down this Neanderthal embarrassment to liberal Western values?

This European anger, however, doesn't seem to be based on evidence of systematic American abuse. Despite Illinois Sen. Dick Durbin's claim that Guantanamo was akin to Nazi camps, the few reported regrettable, isolated cases of sleep deprivation and harassment seem no worse than what we read about in most prisons. The roughly 450 prisoners still there - many of them killers - are probably treated as well as inmates in either Europe or the U.S.

Further, Guantanamo exists to fill a vacuum in an undeclared and unprecedented postmodern war of few good choices in which the enemy does not wear uniforms, adhere to the Geneva Convention or distinguish civilians from soldiers.

If the U.S. were to close down Guantanamo and send the detainees back to their home countries, some returnees would be freed and treated as heroes - and then rejoin the global jihad. Other released terrorists, or so the Europeans no doubt would whine, might be executed by the autocratic Middle Eastern governments in their homelands that are as afraid of Islamic terrorists as we are.

So, should we instead try all of the Guantanamo detainees inside the U.S.?

No. By doing that, we would be inviting thousands of lawyers and public defenders to argue, on behalf of their clients, that we are not in a real war but simply prosecuting common criminals. Numerous trials and appeals as costly and circus-like as the drawn-out spectacle of Zacarias Moussaoui (the so-called 20th hijacker) would likely follow. And, in the end, Europeans would still object, since the U.S. would be exposing foreign nationals to possible death-penalty sentences.

The real problem is that Guantanamo Bay, like Bush himself, has become a symbol of sorts. It is an easy scapegoat through which Europeans can vent their much larger love-hate frustrations with their protector and rival, the hyper-power America.

The pacifism of the European Union was supposed to be a post-Cold War model of liberal reason for the rest of the world. Instead, Islamic fascists have either ignored Europe's human-rights advocacy or considered it a sign of weakness to be exploited. An impotent E.U. is embarrassed and needs cheap targets like Guantanamo to transfer attention away from its past naivete about the dangers of Islamic fascism.

By ankle-biting America on Guantanamo, the Europeans sound moral and tough while ignoring the real dangers for which they have absolutely no solutions - unassimilated and angry Muslims, the Dutch and Danes under assault by radical Islamic censors and a defenseless Europe potentially soon in range of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's nuclear-tipped missiles.

Note also that the U.S. has been mostly quiet about Europe's own ethical lapses in this war. Americans are in a quandary with Iran in large part because the Europeans - for whom profits trump idealism - sold the theocracy technology needed for the bomb. Nothing new there: Saddam once got his nuclear reactor from the French and his bombproof bunkers from the Germans.

We also hear a lot about the three suicides at Guantanamo but almost nothing about the still-unexplained death of Slobodan Milosevic while being held in Europe. When was the last time Americans chided the Germans that Mohammed Atta conspired to murder thousands of Americans while in their country?

Have we forgotten that Ahmed Omar Sheikh, the killer of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, and Richard Reid, the would-be shoe bomber, at one time fit in well with the radical Islamic culture that thrives in London. And how about Abu Hamza al-Masri, who plotted against the U.S. - he's wanted by American authorities on charges of trying to establish a terrorist training camp in Oregon - from his sanctuary in a London mosque?

Yet if the Eiffel Tower topples to a jihadist suicide bomber who assembled his team in Los Angeles or Miami, or if an Iranian missile soars over the Brandenburg Gate, expect the Europeans to drop their present high talk about the "gulag" at Guantanamo - and start whispering about the need for more American terrorist detention centers, classical deterrence and their own missile defense.

But until the Europeans' dream world is shattered, we will hear nonstop screeching about American barbarity. Such outrage says far more about them than us.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jun, 2006 09:30 am
SierraSong wrote:

But until the Europeans' dream world is shattered, we will hear nonstop screeching about American barbarity. Such outrage says far more about them than us.


.... and the US Supreme Court, obviously, following that logic.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jun, 2006 09:35 am
SierraSong wrote:

But until the Europeans' dream world is shattered, we will hear nonstop screeching about American barbarity. Such outrage says far more about them than us.


.... and the US Supreme Court, obviously, following that logic.
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jun, 2006 07:15 pm
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jun, 2006 11:01 pm
McGentrix wrote:
pachelbel wrote:
BernardR wrote:
Do Pachelbel. Detano and Revel have access to newspapers? If they have and read more than the comics, they would discover that the case of the rights of the Gitmo prisoners is being heard in the USSC NOW. Because we are a nation of laws and do not believe that we take care of our prisoners like the fanatic Islamo-fascists who solve the problem by cutting off heads, Pachelbel, Detano, and Revel will just have to wait until the court rules.

Pachelbel, Detano and Revel may be surprised when they discover that the USSC will declare Gitmo should be closed.

What will Pachelbel, Detano and Revel say then?


Can't speak for Detano and Revel. Maybe the USSC will take the Constitution seriously - who knows? It won't bring back the innocent people who died in those torture camps. Don't you read? Associated Press report said '70-90% of detainees were innocent'. Look back through a few posts for the original short story if you care.

The 'fanatic Islamo-fascists' can be likened to the neo-con fanatic Christian fundamentalist fascists who are running the Adm. and blow up innocent people -no difference.

Here's a quote I got from my comic books - "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag carrying the Cross". Sinclair Lewis.

You don't spread democracy through the barrel of a gun.


What horseshit. Did you go to liberalsRus.com to gather those talking points?

You are really an ignorant arse. I imagine you don't know who Sinclair Lewis was, being as he won the Nobel Prize for literature. Not up your alley.

I can't believe that there are actually people in the world that actually believe this crapola.
Quote:
It won't bring back the innocent people who died in those torture camps. "


You have not supplied any facts; only drivel, as usual. As I said, the ASSOCIATED PRESS (ring a bell ding dong?) reported that 70-90% of the detainees are innocent.

They deserve the right of a trial and to be represented by legal council. If they are guilty, charge them. If not, (and I believe they are not guilty) let them go! It's against Geneva Conventions.

Don't tell me you're one of those bleedin' funda-MENTAL-ist christians who think the Towers were taken down by Iraqis? Try Saudis - and binLaden is a Bush family friend. You really should read. There's no excuse with all the information available. You need to get both sides of the story.


Question You should slap yourself and try to wake up.

Oh, go put yourself on a belly board. I'd like to see how long you last Laughing
since you're into torture and a little S&M. Sicko.

Go ahead, I'll wait.
I bet you would, muete merde. You and Bushie both.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2006 12:27 am
I don't know what country you are from, Mr. Pachelbel, but whereever it is it cannot match the USA for following the rule of law. By now you know that the USSC has ruled that the Prisoners in Guantanamo fall under the rules of the Geneva Convention. We are the country whose courts rule against the person who is President.

Tell us how virtuous your country is, Pachelbel. It am sure it will not match our devotion to the rule of law!!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2006 03:04 am
detano inipo wrote:
3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees (10 degrees Celsius). Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.
..........................
I do not see any difference between these methods and Gestapo methods.


The Gestapo was worse.



detano inipo wrote:
It is astonishing that anyone would support these crimes against humanity.


Do you know what a "crime against humanity" is?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2006 03:11 am
detano inipo wrote:
As for the body count in Iraq, I go by official statistics. Of course you are allowed to deny it, you are a Republican.
.
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/



IBC is anything but official.

And since they count every "death" that is widely reported in the media, their numbers are skewed by the false numbers put out by the former Saddam regime back in 2003, and put out by the insurgency today.



detano inipo wrote:
The theory of killing 214 000 civilians to save 100 000 later on is Pentagon talk gone mad.
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki


214,000?????

Do you have some sort of complaint about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2006 06:48 am
Do you have some sort of complaint about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
.
How could anyone complain about a glorious military action that resulted in civilian deaths? It was sweet revenge for Pearl Harbor.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2006 03:50 pm
I am afraid that you know nothing about World War II, Mr. Detano/ If you did, you would know that President Truman agonized about the decision concerning the dropping of the bomb and came to the conclusion that it would save nearly a MILLION LIVES-American, Japanese and.Yes, Canadian(Canada had soldiers fighting in World War II, Mr. Detano).
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2006 06:32 pm
That, dear friend, is a pile of horse apples. Agonized my foot. A million lives! Why don't you make it ten million lives? It would make your argument even sillier.
.
Anyone can make up stories, they don't erase the masses of civilians killed from the air. Tokyo burned to a crisp for no other reason than to kill civilians.
.
It seems, the only thing you know about WW2 are wonderful propaganda clips to make Americans feel righteous and right.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2006 08:59 am
detano inipo wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Do you have some sort of complaint about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?


How could anyone complain about a glorious military action that resulted in civilian deaths? It was sweet revenge for Pearl Harbor.


Well, it wasn't literal revenge. The motive was to force them to accept our surrender terms in a timely manner.

But when you consider all the unspeakably horrible things that Japan was doing, there may just have been a bit of "karma rebalancing" involved.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2006 09:07 am
detano inipo wrote:
Agonized my foot. A million lives! Why don't you make it ten million lives? It would make your argument even sillier.


Actually, 10 million Japanese civilians would have starved to death had the war continued just a month or two longer.



detano inipo wrote:
Tokyo burned to a crisp for no other reason than to kill civilians.


Killing civilians had nothing to do with the reason for the napalm raid on Tokyo.

The purpose was to destroy arms-production factories.
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2006 11:25 am
oralloy wrote:
detano inipo wrote:
Agonized my foot. A million lives! Why don't you make it ten million lives? It would make your argument even sillier.


Actually, 10 million Japanese civilians would have starved to death had the war continued just a month or two longer.



detano inipo wrote:
Tokyo burned to a crisp for no other reason than to kill civilians.


Killing civilians had nothing to do with the reason for the napalm raid on Tokyo.

The purpose was to destroy arms-production factories.

.......................
Let's stop arguing. I am tired of trying to convince you that the US forces did some bad things in WW2. It is clear that you have never seen the horrors of war and you keep repeating whitewash theories. MacNamara and Le May both have said that they were war criminals, saved by the Allied victory.
.
Dream of John Wayne and be happy.
0 Replies
 
 

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