2
   

Guantanamo suicides confirmed

 
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2006 11:33 am
detano inipo wrote:
oralloy wrote:
detano inipo wrote:
Agonized my foot. A million lives! Why don't you make it ten million lives? It would make your argument even sillier.


Actually, 10 million Japanese civilians would have starved to death had the war continued just a month or two longer.



detano inipo wrote:
Tokyo burned to a crisp for no other reason than to kill civilians.


Killing civilians had nothing to do with the reason for the napalm raid on Tokyo.

The purpose was to destroy arms-production factories.

.......................
Let's stop arguing. I am tired of trying to convince you that the US forces did some bad things in WW2. It is clear that you have never seen the horrors of war and you keep repeating whitewash theories. MacNamara and Le May both have said that they were war criminals, saved by the Allied victory.
.
Dream of John Wayne and be happy.


Well said, detano. Let them have their Hollywood versions, such as movies like Tora Tora or whatever BS it is that allows them to rationalize what they did. It's what their leader Bushie relies upon - the fake swagger, fake accent. The US is one big Grade B movie, and I'm sure one will be coming out soon at a theatre near you about the prisoner - detainee situation. Whitewashed, of course.

Reality would choke 'em.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2006 11:02 pm
detano inipo wrote:
oralloy wrote:
detano inipo wrote:
Agonized my foot. A million lives! Why don't you make it ten million lives? It would make your argument even sillier.


Actually, 10 million Japanese civilians would have starved to death had the war continued just a month or two longer.



detano inipo wrote:
Tokyo burned to a crisp for no other reason than to kill civilians.


Killing civilians had nothing to do with the reason for the napalm raid on Tokyo.

The purpose was to destroy arms-production factories.

.......................
Let's stop arguing. I am tired of trying to convince you that the US forces did some bad things in WW2.


I never argued that they didn't do some bad things. I only argue against your mischaracterizations of what happened.



detano inipo wrote:
It is clear that you have never seen the horrors of war and you keep repeating whitewash theories.


The consensus of mainstream historians, backed by a ton of evidence, is not a whitewash theory.



detano inipo wrote:
Dream of John Wayne and be happy.


I'm plenty happy. I decline on the John Wayne offer however.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2006 11:06 pm
pachelbel wrote:
Well said, detano. Let them have their Hollywood versions, such as movies like Tora Tora or whatever BS it is that allows them to rationalize what they did.


It's called history. It comes in books written by reputable scholars.

And much as you dislike reality, it isn't BS.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2006 11:23 pm
Oralloy- They will not accept History as written by Historians who are accepted world wide--That would show them up as left wing extremists.

Most people in the Western World are aware of the Biography of Harry S. Truman( who by the way, is listed as one of America's best Presidents_ as written by David McCulloch. The book won the PULITZER PRIZE FOR HISTORY IN 1992.


McCullough says:

P. 400

"A memorandum of June 4, 1945, written by General Thomas Handy of Marshall's staff, in listing the advantages of making peace with Japan, said America would save no less than 500,000 to one million lives by AVOIDING THE INVASION ALTOGETHER"

P.. 437

"In the three months since Truman took office, American battle casualties were nearly half the total from three years of war in the Pacific. The nearer victory came, the heavier the price in blood, And whatever the projected toll in American lives in an invasion, it was too high if it could be avoided>"


and

P. 438

"Japan had some 2.5 Million regular troops on the home islands, but every male between the ages of fifteen and sixty, every female from seventedn to forty five was conscripted and armed with everything from ancient brass cannon to bamboo spears, taught to strap explosives to their bodies and throw themselves under advancing tanks"


I am very much afraid that Mr. Detano and Mr. Pachelbel have not read enough History!!!
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 06:05 am
Here is a list of quotes from people who must have been very anti-american and perhaps even traitors.
.
http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 06:45 am
detano inipo wrote:
Here is a list of quotes from people who must have been very anti-american and perhaps even traitors.
.
http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm


I'm not sure why you'd call the people anti-American or traitorous, but a lot of the quotes are highly suspect.


Ike's "tall tale" of his supposed vehement opposition has been so thoroughly discredited by historians that I am not sure why it is even on that webpage.

Hoover's claim about Japan "wanting to negotiate from February" is quite contrary to reality, as can be shown by a quick reference to the historical record. Hoover was babbling about things he knew nothing about.

MacArthur's historian was an imbecile, as is shown by his claim that we gave Japan a condition guaranteeing a continuation of the imperial reign. A quick review of the surrender documents show that that is quite untrue.

Nitze complained that his plan to tighten the blockade and bomb the rail lines might have worked. He is right. It might have. It would have caused 10 million (or more) Japanese civilians to starve to death, but it might have worked. His plan was due to be tried after the A-bombs if Japan had still refused to surrender.

And any quote that is provided by a book written by Gar Alperovitz has to be disregarded as suspect. It is probably taken completely out of context, and was meant to say the opposite of what it appears to say.
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 08:02 am
Those are your opinions. They don't mean anything. You don't know war.
.
The people who were against dropping the A-bomb knew a bit about war and politics. They did not like the idea that the US will be the only country that kills millions of civilians for humanitarian reasons.
.
To kill to save lives is a far-fetched notion.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 01:23 pm
detano inipo wrote:
Those are your opinions.


No, those are facts, backed by the historical record, and backed by all the historians.



detano inipo wrote:
They don't mean anything.


I disagree. Reality is always meaningful.



detano inipo wrote:
You don't know war.


I know reality.



detano inipo wrote:
The people who were against dropping the A-bomb knew a bit about war and politics.


I can think of one person who opposed it who did, Leahy.

Most of the opponents were scientists.



detano inipo wrote:
They did not like the idea that the US will be the only country that kills millions of civilians for humanitarian reasons.


We only killed a few hundred thousand civilians.



detano inipo wrote:
To kill to save lives is a far-fetched notion.


How far fetched is it when a police officer shoots and kills a criminal to stop the criminal from killing a bunch of innocent people?
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 02:42 pm
'Reality is always meaningful.'
.
Not when it is based on propaganda.
..................
I know reality.
.
Have you ever seen hundreds of dead lying around, and smelled them? Have you ever been hungry?
...................
'I can think of one person who opposed it who did, Leahy.
Most of the opponents were scientists.'
.
Don't lie. Look at the list. More military men than scientists.
...............................
'We only killed a few hundred thousand civilians.'
.
Vietnam alone: 2 million. (not counting the agent orange victims who are still dying).
......................................
'How far fetched is it when a police officer shoots and kills a criminal to stop the criminal from killing a bunch of innocent people?'
.
What a wonderful idea. A policeman goes out at night and shoots a few people he doesn't know (like the bomber crews who dropped their cargos on innocents below). With some imagination he might save a lot of lives. The ones he kills could well be serial killers.---Anyone who thinks that way is not a nice person.
...............................
All warring nations commit atrocities. Why is it that all nations admit that fact except the Americans. (with a few US citizens who do and are called traitors).
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 03:25 pm
Quote:
What a wonderful idea. A policeman goes out at night and shoots a few people he doesn't know (like the bomber crews who dropped their cargos on innocents below). With some imagination he might save a lot of lives. The ones he kills could well be serial killers.---Anyone who thinks that way is not a nice person.


A police sniper shoots and kills an armed man in a McDonalds.
That armed man is shooting his hostages,because he wanted to go "hunting humans".

By shooting this armed man,and killing him,the police officer saved the lives of 25 people in the McDonalds.

By your statement,the cops should not have killed the armed man,because "To kill to save lives is a far-fetched notion."

BTW,this scenario actually happened,in SAn Diego.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 04:44 pm
detano inipo wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Reality is always meaningful.


Not when it is based on propaganda.


It should be noted that you are the only one here who is posting anything based on propaganda.

In addition, reality can never be based on propaganda. Reality just doesn't work that way. Reality is based on truth and facts.



detano inipo wrote:
oralloy wrote:
I can think of one person who opposed it who did, Leahy.

Most of the opponents were scientists.

.
Don't lie.


Don't worry, I won't.



detano inipo wrote:
Look at the list. More military men than scientists.


Can you show me any military man on the list besides Leahy who tried to oppose the use of the bombs?



detano inipo wrote:
oralloy wrote:
We only killed a few hundred thousand civilians.

.
Vietnam alone: 2 million. (not counting the agent orange victims who are still dying).


I wasn't talking about Vietnam. I was talking about the figures from World War II.



detano inipo wrote:
All warring nations commit atrocities. Why is it that all nations admit that fact except the Americans. (with a few US citizens who do and are called traitors).


Challenging your unfair and inaccurate characterization of the conduct of the war against Japan is not the same thing as denial of atrocities.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 10:33 pm
Propaganda uses selected truths and omissions of facts, that's the way it works.

If this were not so, Americans would not have bought into the Iraq war based upon:

1. Thinking Iraq was responsible for 9/11. They were not.
2. Thinking Iraq had WMD's, based upon propaganda.
3. Thinking that since WMD's could not be found, democracy was a good excuse to be in Iraq. Gotta get that oil somehow.
4. Being told by Bush that the over was over. How many Americans believe that? He said that on an aircraft carrier, remember? Is that being misinformed, stupid, or is it propaganda, or all three?

How do you keep the troops fighting if you tell them they are losing? You lie to them. That's what is happening in Iraq. Americans and English are dying daily in insurgent attacks. They cannot win this war. But it is making huge fortunes to people like Bush and Cheney, who are knee deep in the defense business: Carlyle Group and Halliburton. They rely on propaganda to keep this 'war' going. It's just business to them.

Goebbels no doubt told the German people that Germany was being victorious in Russia well after Stalingrad. If you don't know the story of Stalingrad look it up.

America is the relatively new kid on the block; they don't have thousands of years of history of war, as does Europe, to temper their misplaced enthusiasm. Thus they will not admit to any atrocity, because their propaganda deludes them into thinking they are doing something GOOD for the people they are killing.

A good example of propaganda was that the war in Vietnam was not lost, nor the war of 1812.

Have you read "My Pet Goat" lately? That should tell you everything you need to know. Apparently it's helped Mr. Bush immensely.

Have a fun 4th of July.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 04:19 am
pachelbel wrote:
Propaganda uses selected truths and omissions of facts, that's the way it works.


Yes, like that page of quotes about the A-bombs, for example.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 06:14 pm
oralloy wrote:
pachelbel wrote:
Well said, detano. Let them have their Hollywood versions, such as movies like Tora Tora or whatever BS it is that allows them to rationalize what they did.


It's called history. It comes in books written by reputable scholars.

And much as you dislike reality, it isn't BS.


Your version of reality needs a check.

History is just that, 'his'tory. Ever heard of history revisionists? That's when facts become apparent which are not based upon propaganda.

Of course, when there's a war to be won, whipping the populace into a frenzy helps. How do you do that if only truth is told? You lie, as the current Adm. does so well.

Has everyone forgotten the WMD fiasco? Apparently so. It's more convenient to focus on another 'reality' of why the Americans are attacking a country that never attacked America. Have you got a good, reality based opinion on that?

You didn't answer my previous post concerning HOW the US got people whipped into this frenzy. They had to allow the Towers to be bombed first.

Do you really think anyone would have gone to Iraq under the false assumption that Iraq attacked on 9/11, without your wondrous propaganda? You people are so twisted up you don't know truth from fiction.

America IS NOT winning any war in Iraq. You're getting your butts kicked.

Rummy'll be telling you something else quite different.

Hey, I've got some swamp land in Florida for sale, real cheap. Interested?
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 06:29 pm
The Big Mistake (good name for a movie)
The basic mistake of American policy in Iraq is not that the Pentagon -- believing the fairy tales told it by Iraqi exile groups and overriding State Department advice -- forgot, when planning "regime change," to bring along a spare government to replace the one it was smashing.

The mistake was not that, once embarked on running the place, the administration did not send enough troops to do the job. Not that a civilian contingent to aid the soldiers was lacking. Not that the Baghdad museum, the Jordanian Embassy, the United Nations and Imam Ali mosque, among other places, were left unguarded. Not that no adequate police force, whether American or Iraqi, was provided to keep order generally. Not that the United States, seeking to make good that lack, then began to recruit men from the most hated and brutal of Saddam's agencies, the Mukhabarat.

It is not that, in an unaccountable and unparalleled lapse in America's once sure-fire technical know-how, Iraq's electrical, water and fuel systems remain dysfunctional. Not that the administration has erected a powerless shadow government composed in large measure of the same clueless exiles that misled the administration in the first place.

Nor is it that the administration has decided to privatize substantial portions of the Iraqi economy before the will of the Iraqi people in this matter is known. Not that the occupation forces have launched search-and-destroy operations that estrange and embitter a population that increasingly despises the United States. Not that, throughout, a bullying diplomacy has driven away America's traditional allies.

All these blunders and omissions are indeed mistakes of American policy, and grievous ones, but they are secondary mistakes. The main mistake of American policy in Iraq was waging the war at all. That is not a conclusion that anyone should have to labor to arrive at.

Something like the whole world, including most of its governments and tens of millions of demonstrators, plus the UN Security Council, Representative Dennis Kucinich, Governor Howard Dean, made the point most vocally before the fact. They variously pointed out that the Iraqi regime gave no support to al-Qaeda, predicted that the United States would be unable to establish democracy in Iraq by force (and that therefore no such democracy could serve as a splendid model for the rest of the Middle East), warned that "regime change" for purposes of disarmament was likely to encourage other countries to build weapons of mass destruction, and argued that the allegations that Iraq already had weapons of mass destruction and was ready to use them at any moment (within forty-five minutes after the order was delivered, it was said) were unproven.

All these justifications for the war are now in history's ash heap, never to be retrieved -- adding a few largish piles to the mountains of ideological claptrap (of the left, the right and what have you) that were the habitual accompaniment of the assorted horrors of the twentieth century.

Recognition of this mistake -- one that may prove as great as the decision to embark on the Vietnam War -- is essential if the best (or at any rate the least disastrous) path out of the mess is to be charted. Otherwise, the mistake may be compounded, and such indeed is the direction in which a substantial new body of opinion now pushes the United States.

In this company are Democrats in Congress who credulously accepted the Bush administration's arguments for the war or simply caved in to administration pressure, hawkish liberal commentators in the same position and a growing minority of right-wing critics.

They now recommend increasing American troop strength in Iraq. Some supported the war and still do. "We must win," says Democratic Senator Joseph Biden, who went on "Good Morning America" to recommend dispatching more troops. His colleague Republican John McCain agrees. The right-wing Weekly Standard is of like mind. Others were doubtful about the war at the beginning but think the United States must "win" now that the war has been launched.

The New York Times, which opposed an invasion without UN Security Council support, has declared in an editorial that "establishing a free and peaceful Iraq as a linchpin for progress throughout the Middle East is a goal worth struggling for, even at great costs." And, voicing a view often now heard, it adds, "We are there now, and it is essential to stay the course." Joe Klein, of Time magazine, states, "Retreat is not an option."

"Winning," evidently, now consists not in finding the weapons of mass destruction that once were the designated reason for fighting the war, but in creating a democratic government in Iraq -- the one that will serve as a model for the entire Middle East. Condoleezza Rice has called that task the "moral mission of our time." Stanford professor Michael McFaul has even proposed a new Cabinet department whose job would be "the creation of new states." The Pentagon's job will be restricted to "regime destruction;" the job of the new outfit, pursuing a "grand strategy on democratic regime change," will be, Houdini-like, to pull new regimes out of its hat.

On the other hand, the Center for Strategic and International Studies, which recently produced a report on the situation in Iraq, thinks a big part of the problem is bad public relations and counsels "an intense communications and marketing campaign to help facilitate a profound change in the Iraqi national frame of mind."

These plans to mass-produce democracies and transform the mentalities of whole peoples have the look of desperate attempts -- as grandiose as they are unhinged from reality -- to overlook the obvious: First, that people, not excluding Iraqis, do not like to be conquered and occupied by foreign powers and are ready and able to resist; second, that disarmament, which is indeed an essential goal for the new century, can only, except in the rarest of circumstances, be achieved not through war but through the common voluntary will of nations. It is not the character of the occupation, it is occupation itself that in a multitude of ways the Iraqis are rejecting.

The practical problem of Iraq's future remains. The Iraqi state has been forcibly removed. That state was a horrible one; yet a nation needs a state. The children must go to school; the trains must run; the museums must open; murderers must be put in jail. But the United States, precisely because it is a single foreign state, which like all states has a highly self-interested agenda of its own, is incapable of providing Iraq with a government that serves its own people. The United States therefore must, to begin with, surrender control of the operation to an international force.

It will not suffice to provide "UN cover" for an American operation, as the administration now seems to propose. The United States should announce a staged withdrawal of its forces in favor of and in conjunction with whatever international forces can be cobbled together. It should also (but surely will not) provide that force with about a hundred billion or so dollars to do its work -- a low estimate of what is needed to rebuild Iraq.

Biden says we must win the war. This is precisely wrong. The United States must learn to lose this war -- a harder task, in many ways, than winning, for it requires admitting mistakes and relinquishing attractive fantasies. This is the true moral mission of our time (well, of the next few years, anyway).

The cost of leaving will certainly be high, but not anywhere near as high as trying to "stay the course," which can only magnify and postpone the disaster. And yet -- regrettable to say -- even if this difficult step is taken, no one should imagine that democracy will be achieved by this means. The great likelihood is something else -- something worse: perhaps a recrudescence of dictatorship or civil war, or both. An interim period -- probably very brief -- of international trusteeship is the best solution, yet it is unlikely to be a good solution. It is merely better than any other recourse.

The good options have probably passed us by. They may never have existed. If the people of Iraq are given back their country, there isn't the slightest guarantee that they will use the privilege to create a liberal democracy. The creation of democracy is an organic process that must proceed from the will of the local people. Sometimes that will is present, more often it is not. Vietnam provides an example. Vietnam today enjoys the self-determination it battled to achieve for so long; but it has not become a democracy.

On the other hand, just because Iraq's future remains to be decided by its talented people, it would also be wrong to categorically rule out the possibility that they will escape tyranny and create democratic government for themselves. The United States and other countries might even find ways of offering modest assistance in the project; it is beyond the power of the United States to create democracy for them.

The matter is not in our hands. It never was.

Jonathan Schell, the Harold Willens Peace Fellow of the Nation Institute, is the author of the recently published "The Unconquerable World: Power, Nonviolence, and the Will of the People" (Metropolitan). Reprinted with permission from the September 22, 2003 issue of The Nation. Read more at TomDispatch.com.

Cool This book could likely be used as a textbook at colleges/universities in the US, ollaroy. Since you were in school things have changed. Cool
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 08:08 pm
Nazi Germany
Nazi propaganda was used to glorify Adolf Hitler and stifle dissenting viewpoints.
The dictatorship of Adolf Hitler suppressed completely the right to freedom of the press. Journalists were not allowed to say anything against Hitler and the Nazis or they would be risking imprisonment or even death. Propaganda was always used by the Nazis in their newspapers and other news media.
The Government issued a cheap radio for the people. It could not receive foreign radio stations. Whoever had a more powerful radio and the courage to listen to the BBC, risked jail or death.
.
This explains in part the fact that so many Germans were willing followers of the Nazi regime; at least for the first few years, the 'good years'.
.
What bothers me is the massive acceptance of government propaganda in the US. Unlike the Germans in the 30s, Americans can hear and read freely all the opposition arguments and explanations.
.
How they managed to accept a string of lies is remarkable.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2006 10:28 pm
detano inipo wrote:
The Government issued a cheap radio for the people. It could not receive foreign radio stations. Whoever had a more powerful radio and the courage to listen to the BBC, risked jail or death.




In practice, the 'Volksempfänger' could (with some difficulty) still be used to receive foreign stations (including the BBC). As far as I know, especially during WWII most Germans used it for exactly this purpose.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 08:57 am
pachelbel wrote:
oralloy wrote:
pachelbel wrote:
Well said, detano. Let them have their Hollywood versions, such as movies like Tora Tora or whatever BS it is that allows them to rationalize what they did.


It's called history. It comes in books written by reputable scholars.

And much as you dislike reality, it isn't BS.


Your version of reality needs a check.


The fact that it is supported by the historians seems to be a pretty good check.



pachelbel wrote:
Ever heard of history revisionists? That's when facts become apparent which are not based upon propaganda.


Those are the good revisionists. Unfortunately there are also revisionists who seek to replace facts with more propaganda.



pachelbel wrote:
Has everyone forgotten the WMD fiasco?


What fiasco? We are now secure in the knowledge that Iraq does not have WMDs.

That seems to be a suitable outcome.



pachelbel wrote:
It's more convenient to focus on another 'reality' of why the Americans are attacking a country that never attacked America. Have you got a good, reality based opinion on that?


Some Americans were really concerned about the possibility of WMDs. Others wanted to establish a reliable Arab democracy in the Middle East.



pachelbel wrote:
America IS NOT winning any war in Iraq. You're getting your butts kicked.


Looks like Iraq is well-along the path to democracy to me.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 01:39 pm
"looks like Iraq is well along the path to democracy to me'. ollaroy

Is that right, ollaroy? Been reading more of Bush & Co. propaganda?
See if you can follow this article:

Blowing up democracy on Fourth of July

By ROBERT L. JAMIESON Jr.
P-I COLUMNIST

America, Happy Fourth of Ju-lying.

On this day to celebrate the birth of democracy, we mourn the death of our Founding Fathers' ideals.

President Bush recently lashed out against reporters for divulging a secret government program that monitors international banking transactions. He called such newspaper revelations "disgraceful" acts that help terrorists.

Bush, an underwhelming intellect in college, presumably slept through history class -- you know, the part where Thomas Jefferson, says, "Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter."

It is funny how the president gets more worked up about a free press doing its job under the Constitution than about rogue American soldiers torturing suspects in Abu Ghraib, or U.S. troops allegedly raping an Iraqi girl, killing her family and burning her body, or the administration's own ad hoc system of military tribunals that flies in the face of U.S. and international laws, or government spooks plowing through phone records.

The administration will even lie or distort to achieve ends, as it did with weapons of mass destruction. And remember Jessica Lynch, the valiant blond soldier who shot mean Iraqis like Rambo? That turned out to be hyperbole to drum up war support.

If the Bush brand of democracy looks this way at home -- under a modicum of public scrutiny -- one can only imagine what it looks like in Iraq, where fewer American eyes can see what is going on.

Iraq was supposed to be a shining example of democracy in action.

The picture, it turns out, is not so pretty -- and it hasn't been from the earliest days after the U.S. invasion, according to Belltown filmmaker James Longley.


The 34-year-old cineaste figured there was a compelling but untold story in Iraq. From early 2003 to April 2005, Longley spent hundreds of hours capturing people at the grass roots of the France-sized country. His 2006 documentary "Iraq in Fragments" -- which won a directing award at Sundance -- tells stories Bush would rather see on the cutting room floor.

In Baghdad, Longley filmed men on gritty street corners. "Why don't they take the oil and leave us alone," one man says to the camera. By "they" the man meant us -- oil-hungry Americans.

An Iraqi adds: "This humanitarian aid they talk about -- where is it?" Another adds: "If it's like this in the beginning, what will it be in the end?"

Venturing into southern Iraq, site of the Shia uprising, Longley took footage of a rally.

"They came to teach us of Western democracy," a man says, standing at a podium before hundreds. "Killing. Displacement. And torture. Arrests without charge. ... This is the democracy they have brought. But Islam is the true democracy -- the opposite of the false, empty democracy they are boasting of."

Another Iraqi man mentions the West's lack of understanding. America, he says, underestimates how much people in his country know about democracy.

"We know what democracy means," he says. If the elections succeed, he says, the popular will shall throw out Americans "with a slap on the face."

One man tells Longley: "America promised one thing and did another. They came as liberators and became occupiers. They came to support the people and then turned against us, against the Iraqi people, against Iraq. That's America."

The strongest nod of support for the United States in the 94-minute documentary comes from the Kurds in the north. They suffered greatly under Saddam's murderous rule.

"God brought America to the Kurds," says a grateful Kurd. "He brought her to us, and they liberated Iraq ... We came out of darkness into the light."

Such a bright moment for Uncle Sam gets lost amid the film's critical voices. The criticisms may come as a shock to some people -- as much of a shock, perhaps, as the recent revelations about how the U.S. government works domestically behind the curtains.

I chalk up such shenanigans as par for the course for Bush & Co.

In Bush's world, the media should be lapdogs for the administration, not watchdogs. Asking questions is rude. Lies aren't lies -- they're examples of "truthiness." And when all else fails just pull out the fear card -- with color-coded terror warnings -- and distract the public.

In Bush's world, Iraq isn't a failure.

It is a gleaming success waiting to spring from the cocoon, because, well, that's what Bush says it is.

That sound you are hearing this Fourth of July isn't just fireworks.

It is democracy being blown to bits by a president who likes to play with fibs and fire.

P-I columnist Robert L. Jamieson Jr. can be reached at 206-448-8125 or [email protected].

***********************************************
Sounds like the Iraqis just LOVE the Americans, doesn't it? Get a clue, clueless. READ or Listen to something else besides The Decider. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Jul, 2006 11:28 am
Quote:
"Arrogance, secrecy, and bad judgment have mired us in a mess in
Guantanamo from which we are having great difficulty in extricating
ourselves," wrote U.S. Army Gen. (Ret.) Barry R. McCaffrey in a report
on his recent trip to the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay.

"The JTF Guantanamo Detention Center is the most professional, firm,
humane and carefully supervised confinement operation that I have
ever personally observed," he stated.

At the same time, "Much of the international community views the
Guantanamo Detention Center as a place of shame and routine violation
of human rights. This view is not correct. However, there will be no
possibility of correcting that view."

"There is now no possible political support for Guantanamo going
forward," Gen. McCaffrey wrote.

"We need a political-military decisive move to break the deadlock" and
to permit the closure of the Guantanamo detention facility.

Gen. McCaffrey proposed a combination of steps including transfer of
as many detainees as possible to their host countries, criminal
trials for some, and efforts to engage foreign and international
legal organs to assume jurisdiction.

"We need to rapidly weed out as many detainees as possible and return
them to their host nation with an evidence package as complete as we
can produce. We can probably dump 2/3 of the detainees in the next 24
months."

"Many we will encounter again armed with an AK47 on the battlefields
of Iraq and Afghanistan. They will join the 120,000 + fighters we now
contend with in those places of combat."

But even if that is so, he wrote, "It may be cheaper and cleaner to
kill them in combat then sit on them for the next 15 years."

"We need to be completely transparent with the international legal and
media communities about the operations of our detention procedures
wherever they are located," Gen. McCaffrey advised.

A copy of Gen. McCaffrey's June 28, 2006 trip report on his June 18-19
trip to Guantanamo is available HERE


Source: SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2006, Issue No. 77, July 7, 2006
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