I thought at the beginning of the book it says that the story is based on factual documents.
Lash wrote:Intrepid wrote:Joe Nation wrote:Quote:Many seem to forget that the book and the movie are fiction. Fiction, people.
Yes, but the philosophy is real and what the fictional book says about the philosophy is that it is false, that women should have been freed by Christianity and instead they have been imprisoned by it.
Joe(God loves me more because I have a penis.)Nation
That must be other Christians. I don't know any Christian women who are imprisoned.
I think if heads were cool, and considered this issue only briefly, it would be crystal clear that women are commanded to be subservient in Christianity---->as written by Paul in the New Testament. There are reams of scripture. I would bring it, but I'm sure Trep can recall it.
Clarification. Thanks, Joe. I should make the distinction, too.
material girl wrote:I thought at the beginning of the book it says that the story is based on factual documents.
It says the buildings and rituals described therein are factual, and the Opus Dei is a real organization.
Opus Dei is certainly an ultramontane organization, for whatever its protestations to the contrary. However, with regard to The DaVinci Code, they state that they are inaccurately and unfairly portrayed. The former accusation seems easily substantiated--the latter might be a subject for debate. There was quite an interesting series on The Discovery channel a week or two ago, when they had a "Da Vinci" weekend. I didn't watch that much of it, because it frankly doesn't interest me. However, i did watch the program on Opus Dei, and followed closely the remarks of their "on camera" representative. Unless he were lying about the passages of the book (which i have not read) and the Discovery Channel made no effort to correct the record, then his accusations were well-founded.
Before anyone jumps all over the fact that i've not read the book, keep in mind that the topic here is the reaction to the book and the motion picture, and only inferentially to the content. I am very much amused.
Those aren't the words of Christ. Look, what Dan Brown, and I think he's an awful writer- don't even look at any of his other "works", managed to say was this:
Women, you wus robbed.
Christ didn't make any distinction, his manly men did in order to keep their head of the household position.
Joe( your subservient position wasn't Christ's idea. He said what?)Nation
Joe Nation wrote:Intrepid wrote:Joe Nation wrote:Do you know any Christian women who are equal to their spouses?
Joe(um. ,,, er)Nation
Yes, many. I could start with my wife and go on from there.......
Good. So in your sect the authority borne by all the men is equal to that borne by the women. Decisions on matters of faith and morality can and are decided by women and it has been that way for the past two thousand years. If not, how recently have women gained their voices in the your church?
Joe(1 Corinthians 14:33-35)Nation
First, I do not belong to a sect. Second, I cannot speak to two thousand years ago no more than you can. Nor, can I speak for everyone. I can only speak for me and those who I know. It is not my job to defend what happened in a land far away two thousand years before I was born. I can only champion what is within my lifetime.
Let the Bible speak for itself.
1 Timothy
2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Titus
2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
2:5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
1 Corinthians
11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.
11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered [them] to you.
11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1 Corinthians
14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
Ephesians
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
1 Peter
3:1 Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Remember this is GOD'S WORD.
Material Girl--
I looked at my copy to see what you meant when you said the book stated it was based on factual documents.
Mine says Opus Dei and The Priory of the Scion are actual historical groups. It further claims that all secret rituals, architecture and artwork discussed are represented factually.
Of course, that leaves a lot of other inferences that could be based on imagination.
xingu wrote:Remember this is GOD'S WORD.
Funny, Jesus didn't say a mumbling word about it. Only these guys did and
they didn't refer to Jesus either did they? Adam was made first so he gets to be first? Yeah, maybe in a family of four getting into the car.
My favorite is this one:
11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
The women don't even get to claim Christ as their head, only men do.
Christ didn't say that. Men did.
Intrepid wrote:
Quote:First, I do not belong to a sect. Second, I cannot speak to two thousand years ago no more than you can. Nor, can I speak for everyone. I can only speak for me and those who I know. It is not my job to defend what happened in a land far away two thousand years before I was born. I can only champion what is within my lifetime.
You'd make a great Peter, those are wonderful denials. Are you not a Christian or not a member of a sect or both? I was asking about the equality of Christian women to their spouses and assumed those spouses would be Christian. Do you object to the word 'Sect"? Okay, how about church?
In your
church, the authority borne by all the men is equal to that borne by the women. Decisions on matters of faith and morality can and are decided by women. Yes or no. If no, what words of Christ impel this condition?
That's why fundamentalists don't like the Code, it points out that when women had the chance to be equals to men, the boys swiped it.
Joe(Sit down, ladies, I hear the word ... .)Nation
One of the problems I have with Christians are their hypocrisy. They love to proclaim their religiosity but they very quickly ignore anything in the bible that inconvenience them or goes against their personal philosophy.
xingu wrote:One of the problems I have with Christians are their hypocrisy. They love to proclaim their religiosity but they very quickly ignore anything in the bible that inconvenience them or goes against their personal philosophy.
Totally agree, well said.
Ive mentioned a couple of times on here that I read a bit of the Bible when I was young and it had a story were 2 daughters had sex with their own father to carry on the family line!!
Thats just not right, no matter what book its in!!
Props to Joe.
I've never even looked for direct comments Christ made re women, gender roles.
I wonder just how badly Paul screwed the facts.
Don't blame it all on Paul - he was just working with what he had:
[url=http://www.dltk-bible.com/genesis/chapter2-kjv.htm][u][i][b]The transcrbers, translators, and redactors of Genesis wrote:[/b][/i][/u][/url]
1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made He a woman, and brought her unto the man.
2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
3:11 And He said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
3:12 And the man said, The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
3:16 Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
3:17 And unto Adam He said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life ...
From whence, in accordance with Paul's vision, proceedeth the NT's misogyny.
why da vinci code scares fundamentalists
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:You know what I can't understand?
The title fooled me into thinking that this was a reasonable debate about why fundamentalist Christians are so scared of a work of fiction. Not all mind you, but a sizeable number at that.
The content of the first post may have been complete drivel, but the question behind it is still a good one.
Why are they so scared of a work of fiction? Why are they so scared that people might believe in a work of fiction? Surely, those that believe in Dan Brown's work are the sort of people whose faith was teetering on the precipice of destruction before they even read it?
?
Fundamentalists are not just scared, terrified, they are wildly angry because they don't like anyone usurping their position, disputing "their" word. When people talk they only expose themselves. Where would these "religious" people go, what would they do, if Godforbid they are wrong?
I admire all of you for trying to discuss this subject because the subject is TOO LARGE to discuss. Each of us has to find our own answers. Personally, I don't think Jesus and Mary M. married and had a child. That part of da vinci code could be fiction but, the remaining pages which are almost exactly as the movie are based on fact.
People who believe there is God but that the organized "Church" itself pumps out fiction would like reading the very small book "What Jesus Meant" by Garry Wills, who is currently Professor of History Emeritus at Northwestern U, but at one time he studied for the priesthood, took his doctorate in the classics, and taught Greek for many years at Johns Hopkins. He also won the Pulitzer Prize. This man backs up every single quote in this marvelous brand new work where he proves that Jesus' teachings had nothing whatever to do with a "religion." Rather, he brought the world "equality," as "hierarchy" was already present.
Lash wrote:Props to Joe.
I've never even looked for direct comments Christ made re women, gender roles.
I wonder just how badly Paul screwed the facts.
It's the strangest thing. He comes to change everything about our relationship with GOD and the only thing that doesn't get changed is that women are still second. Huh?
Joe(maybe Paul talked to the snake too)Nation
Fascinating and scary that there is so much misogynist material in the bible.
So, I've now got some more reasons to disagree with those who take the words in the bible literally.
I used to be of the opinion that the bible (at least the New Testament) has a relevant message - teaching us how to be good to each other in order to achieve a better society - whether or not there is a god, heaven or hell (none of which I personally believe).
Now I'm feeling angry at the hypocrisy and wonder how any intelligent woman in this age could agree with this text, so obviously produced by self-serving men to keep women out of their business by calling their ideas "the word of god".
Do Momma Angel and Bella Dea really believe that they should be governed by the decisions of men? Really? That's more foolish in my eyes than any "faith" in an almighty being.
