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Sat 20 May, 2006 05:03 am
Hello all,
I know people are going to respond harshly to what I am about to claim, and probably with good reason. This is, after all, a touchy subject.
Rape has been a major transgression through the ages, and justly so I believe. Too often a woman become victims to a man who uses brute force to get what he wants, at the detriment of his victim. Such people deserve a harsh sentence.
But what about women who cry Rape... and lie? Of course, if it is a total fabrication, the truth will probably found out. But what if it is based on actual sexual intercourse? In the movie disclosure, this goes even one step further, after all it's Michael Douglas whom is being sexually assaulted by Demi Moore.
Now, what if Mrs. Moore would proceed to claim that Mr. Douglas raped her? There has most definitely been sexual intercourse. In the movie, it is clear that Mrs. Moore would be lying if she claimed that, but when such a case would actually go to court, how do you think society would react?
At the very least, the reputation of such a man would be destroyed, as in all probability his marriage and/or his friendships.
He would probably be convicted as well, seeing as how the evidence is there of sexual intercourse, and the society will almost automatically symphatise with the 'victim'.
We walk a difficult line in the society of today. On the one hand, something I applaud btw., feminism has most definitely has an effect, and the traditional gender roles of ages past have been greatly diminished.
This has been a very positive development indeed, and it has allowed women to do constructive things with their life they had no chance of doing in the past.
Yet on the other hand, biological differences and sexual attraction remain a fact and is a VERY powerful force in the society of today. In earlier times, women often led sheltered lives. Men dealt with men, while women held sway over the household and raised the children. People of opposite sexes met and interacted with each other over dinners and parties. Those kind of social events by their very nature are quite public and social control was quite large.
Nowadays, men and women mingle in all layers of society. We meet each other on a day to day basis. The concept of the one night stand is really a sign of the times. The limiting factors of Religion and marriage regarding sexual intercourse also disappeared. All in all, the attitude to sex has changed. BUT NOT TO RAPE.
And what do I mean to say? This is hypothetical of course, but think of the Salem witchhunts. If a woman has certain ambitions and goals, or harbors resentful feelings to a male acquaintance, she could a la Disclosure try to seduce the man and then cry Rape. With the consequences outlined above.
Now, provided you will not bash my post as hypocrisy and/or callousness, I ask in all seriousness, if you agree this might be a problem, what could/should we do about this?
Naj.
najmelliw. rape isnt about sex its about power when you understand that you will have the answer to your questions.
I think there are aspects of both sex and power involved in Rape, dadpad. Not just one with the exclusion of the other.
As for the answer... Please clarify. If I could see the answer to my question, I wouldn't have asked t in the first place.
What we should do is continue the campaign of rape education. Teach people with our lives that rape is wrong, will not be tolerated, and it happens.
Bring to light the reality of rape in our world. Create a world where children, women, and men will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they will be believed when they speak of being raped. Cast the dark secret and shame into the light of day.
There is so much we can do.
Once we have progressed further with education and changing the old barbaric attitudes towards rape, as well as socially legally every way working to prevent/punish rape, then this secondary problem will be eased as well.
Most important matters first.
I want to make it clear, however, that I understand the gravity of a man/woman being branded as a rapist when they are not. Yes, it is serious. An entire life can be destroyed.
I truly believe that instances of that are lessened with awareness and by working to eliminate/greatly reduce rape.
Too many are raped and have their lives destroyed. The numbers point to working on that problem first and foremost.
Also note that bringing up issues/questions such as you pose can serve as a great distraction from the central quest to prevent rape and to support victims.
It can be a distorting element.
We are not yet at the point where all can speak freely and be believed/supported as rape victims. Many still live in real fear, actual danger, shame pain.....
These people are most important to me personally. I'd rather err on the side of believing ALL and following up accordingly.
p.s. Why did you use 'she' in the title? Perhaps you didn't think it through, but it is rather telling in its way.
flushd wrote:What we should do is continue the campaign of rape education. Teach people with our lives that rape is wrong, will not be tolerated, and it happens.
Bring to light the reality of rape in our world. Create a world where children, women, and men will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they will be believed when they speak of being raped. Cast the dark secret and shame into the light of day.
There is so much we can do.
Once we have progressed further with education and changing the old barbaric attitudes towards rape, as well as socially legally every way working to prevent/punish rape, then this secondary problem will be eased as well.
Most important matters first.
I want to make it clear, however, that I understand the gravity of a man/woman being branded as a rapist when they are not. Yes, it is serious. An entire life can be destroyed.
I truly believe that instances of that are lessened with awareness and by working to eliminate/greatly reduce rape.
Too many are raped and have their lives destroyed. The numbers point to working on that problem first and foremost.
Also note that bringing up issues/questions such as you pose can serve as a great distraction from the central quest to prevent rape and to support victims.
It can be a distorting element.
We are not yet at the point where all can speak freely and be believed/supported as rape victims. Many still live in real fear, actual danger, shame pain.....
These people are most important to me personally. I'd rather err on the side of believing ALL and following up accordingly.
p.s. Why did you use 'she' in the title? Perhaps you didn't think it through, but it is rather telling in its way.
To answer your question first, I actually did think about it. Rape for most people is a stratified concept, with very clear gender divisions. Males are the predators, and females are the victims. It is this gender division that can be exploited by malicious women. Mind you, I am not claiming this happens a lot, but it does happen. Perhaps a year ago, a woman in France created a ruckus when she claimed to have been sexually assaulted on a train by a group of skinheads. Only one or two days later, the police followed this up with a message that this was just a fabrication.
Historically speaking, the Salem witch hunt is the perfect example of people twisting the truth and claiming to be victims in order to further their own (or their parents) ends.
You seem to say that it is actually detrimental to think about these things, as they can be a hurdle in the way of females afraid to state they have been raped.
You may be right to an extent. But I think it is only fair to consider both sides of a case. People abusing the legal system in order to get their own way are much like an open sore on the legal body. Ignoring it will only make it worse.
So I'd suggest that we (being society or the justice system) believe the rape victim the moment such a transgression is reported. This should not exclude, however, an investigation into the matter to verify the claim.
And if we find the accuser has levelled unjust charges, what should the repercussion be?
Naj.
najmelliw wrote:
To answer your question first, I actually did think about it. Rape for most people is a stratified concept, with very clear gender divisions. Males are the predators, and females are the victims. It is this gender division that can be exploited by malicious women...........
You seem to say that it is actually detrimental to think about these things, as they can be a hurdle in the way of females afraid to state they have been raped.
You may be right to an extent. But I think it is only fair to consider both sides of a case. People abusing the legal system in order to get their own way are much like an open sore on the legal body. Ignoring it will only make it worse.
So I'd suggest that we (being society or the justice system) believe the rape victim the moment such a transgression is reported. This should not exclude, however, an investigation into the matter to verify the claim.
And if we find the accuser has levelled unjust charges, what should the repercussion be?
Naj.
Your first paragraph: I see your point. However, isn't it likely and possible that men have made false claims as well against other men and against women?
That's why I'd prefer to use gender neutral terms.
Instead, it seems to me you are driving at the type of idea that goes like this
malicious women are using the fact that they are women to exploit men.
Please clarify that. If that is what you are saying, it is much different than discussing false rape claims. It extends way beyond rape and 'rape' would merely be the topic to get it started.
Your second paragraph: I don't think it is best ignored or not to think of it.
Not at all.
My thought and feelings on it are: First the legal system and people as a whole must improve their stance and education on rape.
Before that happens, there are several problems of which this is one.
I feel that addressing that issue would prevent many false claims (if you knew the system and people took it seriously, you'd be less likely to think you could get away with lying about it).
As for punishment when it is proven to be a false claim, it should be taken very seriously. I am not familiar enough with the laws of many lands to say what in precise terms. However, it would be a major offence.
that's just my thoughts on it
I love how you people can't grasp a simple question: "what about women who cry rape...and lie?" Dadpad heroically saves the day and explains what rape is about, completely ignoring the question, to show how bright he is. Thanks for the insight that rape is about power and not sex. Sharp lad you are.
What can you do about women who lie? Not a hell of a lot. Yes, it happens, and I went to college where it supposedly happened. This drug addicted, mentally unstable chick accused a group of hockey players of raping her, pretty much drove them to leave the school, even though the court found them innocent. Faces were all over major newspapers. An obvious embarrassment to them, while her name was protected.
Kind of like divorce. The courts favor the woman's testimony, even if they're in the wrong. What can you do, other than protect yourself by trying to avoid situations where the worst can happen? Kobe, and other pro athletes obviously have to be careful who they're banging. Just never know....
Well you would think/hope it's just a very small percentage of rape cases where this happens.
So Slappy - your solution is ....to do nothing?
I grasped the question just fine and gave a response.
There is always gonna be liars, manipulators, bastards and bitches.
Flushd,
I am well aware that using gender neutral terms is probably less offensive, but then again, I doubt there are many men out there who will cry rape in the hopes they can become better by doing so.
The system is biased (with reason) towards women in these matters.
As for the second part of your post, now that you clarified your earlier point of view, I understand and second your reasoning.
Slappy, I am aware that I used quite a convoluted way of making my case, but I wanted to give some motivation and background. Many people become (often justly) offended if you doubt rape victims one way or another.
Now, I wonder, what should the level of punishment be? It should be quite harsh, of course. When such a crime occurs, it's a deliberate lie intent on slandering another person while gaining some form of profit (even if it is only publicity) from the matter. In some way, such women must be branded as well (metaphorically speaking of course... I'm not a barbarian). After all, the so accused rapist will be! I'd suggest some four or five years in prison at least! And some sort of financial compensation to be paid from her own bank account.
Naj.
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