Where Tribulation Begins

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Where Tribulation Begins

Tribulation: Function: noun : distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution; also : a trying experience

Where does the tribulation of God originate? Most believers today have developed a very dangerous mind-set. They are of the attitude that since they have not been in any tribulation as of yet , this then means that the tribulation period has not yet begun. This mind-set stems from believers having failed to fully grasp the dynamics of the tribulation period. Believers must comprehend these dynamics, or they will not understand the events which are currently taking place right in front of their very eyes.

We must continue to understand that the tribulation period is one of God's vehicles of judgement. It is used to remove the wicked and unrighteous from the Heaven and the earth.. As I have stated before, during this period of wrath man will witness the execution of God's judgement upon the godly and ungodly alike. Those believers who are rooted and grounded in the true word of God will be prepared and remain, while those believers who are ill equipped will be pulled up and thrown into the flames along with the rest of the ungodly.

Now we must all understand that the tribulation of the world has a starting point and an ending point. It will originate in one part of the universe and spread until it has encompassed the whole earth. Since we now know that the tribulation period is the execution of Divine judgement upon the world, we need to find the scripture or scriptures which deals with the beginning and ending of God's judgment. By finding this scripture or scriptures we will be able to see where the tribulation begins and ends. Two of these scriptures are found in Roman's 2:9 and 1Peter 4:17. {Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;} {1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?} As you can see from the scripture God's judgement or tribulation always begins in his own house with His own people.

So now since judgement begins in the house of God, this then brings us to a new question. Where is God's house located? This does not seem to be a very difficult question. After all many of us are aware of the fact that God makes his primary residence in a place called Heaven. But by saying that God is in Heaven still does not give us the primary location of his house. It just brings us to another question. Where is this Heaven located? Now this question has an increased level of difficulty, because contrary to what many of you have been taught Heaven, is not situated somewhere in space.

Believers must come to the realisation that Heaven is not only located in the spiritual realm. Heaven also occupies a real place in the material realm. Heaven is a real place that is situated somewhere on the real planet. It has real living people (Matt. 22:32, Mark 12:27, Rev 19:1), it has real tables laden with real foods (Luke 14:15, 22:30 ), it has real animals (Hosea 7:12, Rev 19:17), it has real armies (Rev 19:14) and it has real wars (Rev. 12:7).

Heaven is also known as paradise. It is the place where a real Adam and Eve dwelt before they were ousted. It is a place that has always been coveted and taken by real force, by all of the real great powers of the earth. This is why Messias states in Matthew 11:12 {And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force}. It is a real kingdom where the spiritual trumps the material. In Heaven real people worship God in Spirit and in Truth. The real inhabitants here (God's sheep)care more about pleasing God than pleasing themselves. It is a place where the real things of God are sacred and real men and women reverence and venerate the word of God. And it is the place where the real God and the real Messias dwell (Matt 16:28).

Likewise this is presently the place where the real great dragon who is also called the devil, and Satan has trespassed (Rev 12:9).This is where he and his real earthly minions have caused the real people of God (God's sheep) great distress and suffering (tribulation). This is where the real Messias and his real angels will wage war to remove the real dragon and his real angels (Rev. 12:7-8). And from here the real Messias will rule all the nations with a rod of iron (Rev 12:5, 19:15) This is where the tribulation or the judgement of God has already begun. Here is where the kingdom of God will grow from a tiny unapparent seed. It will increase, expand and spread till it encompasses and consumes all the other nations. Only with true discernment and understanding will you be able to identify this real place.

"You have the right to remain ignorant and refuse to gain knowledge.
Anything that you don't know can and will be used against you in the court of Life"

"The Two Books Are One"

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

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Here we go again? Rolling Eyes

Disasters and bad things happen to people. Are you seriously saying that is tribulation, just because the Bible says tribulation will happen to bad people?

If you attribute everything to God, then you get no credit and no responsibility. How disingenious! I hate that behaviour. That's why I believe the concept of God should just butt out and keep itself separate from life. That way, no one will have the excuse of blaming anything on God.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Here we go again?

Disasters and bad things happen to people. Are you seriously saying that is tribulation, just because the Bible says tribulation will happen to bad people?

If you attribute everything to God, then you get no credit and no responsibility. How disingenious! I hate that behaviour. That's why I believe the concept of God should just butt out and keep itself separate from life. That way, no one will have the excuse of blaming anything on God.

Good Day

Everything is not God's fault. Man's ignorance and arrogance is to blame. Man is responsible for the predicament that he is currently in and the great calamity that is about to occur. You can't escape God. He is real. Most people are unaware that everything that is going on in the world is written in plain English in the Scriptures. And most of it was preventable. Most things are preventable but the problem is that people only notice after the fact. Hitler was preventable, WWI and WWII were preventabel.

Peace

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Yet you imply that this punishment is from God. Are you seriously saying that God will wade in and deal out this punishment himself?

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Mindonfire wrote:

Everything is not God's fault.

Certainly this is correct--in that you cannot demonstrate that any god exists, it would indeed be foolish to blame the figment of someone's imagination for anything.

Quote:

Man's ignorance and arrogance is to blame.

Although the inferential evidence is strong that few members here are more familiar with ignorance and arrogance--there is absolutely no reason to assume that there is any one problem or set of problems which fatally threaten us for which each and every member of humanity is responsible.

Quote:

Man is responsible for the predicament that he is currently in and the great calamity that is about to occur.

Your "predicament" is putative and undemonstrated. You provide no evidence that a "great calamity" is about to occur.

Quote:

You can't escape God. He is real.

You have not demonstrated that any god exists, therefore this is mere nonsense.

Quote:

Most people are unaware that everything that is going on in the world is written in plain English in the Scriptures.

The scriptures were not written in English, and there is nothing either plain nor self-evident about the language upon which you base the allegations you have made based upon your idiosyncratic exegesis.

Quote:

And most of it was preventable. Most things are preventable but the problem is that people only notice after the fact. Hitler was preventable, WWI and WWII were preventabel.

These are statements from authority, without foundation or evidence, and sufficiently vague as to be meaningless, for all the wisdom you intend to assure us they contain. It is by no means certain that "Hitler was preventable." The "stab in the back myth" which was at the heart of the resentments of the German people which Hitler exploited was created by Ludendorf before the Allies had even convened the Paris Peace Conference. It is not unreasonable to suggest that the Great War was one of history's few examples of an inevitable event. Your basis for your contentions is based soley upon an allegation that the "salvation" of humanity can only arise from the acceptance of religious dogma as you retail it--and there are few notions which i could find more ridiculous.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Yet you imply that this punishment is from God. Are you seriously saying that God will wade in and deal out this punishment himself?

Good Day
God does not have to wade in and deal out the punishment. The punishment arises from the Law of Cause and Effect which was established from the beginning of the world. It is explained in the Old Testament

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Mindonfire wrote:

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Yet you imply that this punishment is from God. Are you seriously saying that God will wade in and deal out this punishment himself?

Good Day
God does not have to wade in and deal out the punishment. The punishment arises from the Law of Cause and Effect which was established from the beginning of the world. It is explained in the Old Testament

Then respond to Setanta's post, then.

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Mindonfire wrote:

You can't escape God. He is real.

You believe god is real would be more appropriate.

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Mindonfire wrote:

Good Day

Everything is not God's fault. Man's ignorance and arrogance is to blame. Man is responsible for the predicament that he is currently in and the great calamity that is about to occur. You can't escape God. He is real. Most people are unaware that everything that is going on in the world is written in plain English in the Scriptures. And most of it was preventable. Most things are preventable but the problem is that people only notice after the fact. Hitler was preventable, WWI and WWII were preventabel.

Peace

Ok well in case of natural disasters, whos fault is that? The devil's? Rolling Eyes

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Setanta wrote:

Mindonfire wrote:
Everything is not God's fault.

Certainly this is correct--in that you cannot demonstrate that any god exists, it would indeed be foolish to blame the figment of someone's imagination for anything.

Quote:
Man's ignorance and arrogance is to blame.

Although the inferential evidence is strong that few members here are more familiar with ignorance and arrogance--there is absolutely no reason to assume that there is any one problem or set of problems which fatally threaten us for which each and every member of humanity is responsible.

Quote:
Man is responsible for the predicament that he is currently in and the great calamity that is about to occur.

Your "predicament" is putative and undemonstrated. You provide no evidence that a "great calamity" is about to occur.

Quote:
You can't escape God. He is real.

You have not demonstrated that any god exists, therefore this is mere nonsense.

Quote:
Most people are unaware that everything that is going on in the world is written in plain English in the Scriptures.

The scriptures were not written in English, and there is nothing either plain nor self-evident about the language upon which you base the allegations you have made based upon your idiosyncratic exegesis.

Quote:
And most of it was preventable. Most things are preventable but the problem is that people only notice after the fact. Hitler was preventable, WWI and WWII were preventabel.

You made some really great points here Setanta

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Setanta wrote:

Mindonfire wrote:
Everything is not God's fault.

Certainly this is correct--in that you cannot demonstrate that any god exists, it would indeed be foolish to blame the figment of someone's imagination for anything.

Quote:
Man's ignorance and arrogance is to blame.

Although the inferential evidence is strong that few members here are more familiar with ignorance and arrogance--there is absolutely no reason to assume that there is any one problem or set of problems which fatally threaten us for which each and every member of humanity is responsible.

Quote:
Man is responsible for the predicament that he is currently in and the great calamity that is about to occur.

Your "predicament" is putative and undemonstrated. You provide no evidence that a "great calamity" is about to occur.

Quote:
You can't escape God. He is real.

You have not demonstrated that any god exists, therefore this is mere nonsense.

Quote:
Most people are unaware that everything that is going on in the world is written in plain English in the Scriptures.

The scriptures were not written in English, and there is nothing either plain nor self-evident about the language upon which you base the allegations you have made based upon your idiosyncratic exegesis.

Quote:
And most of it was preventable. Most things are preventable but the problem is that people only notice after the fact. Hitler was preventable, WWI and WWII were preventabel.

These are statements from authority, without foundation or evidence, and sufficiently vague as to be meaningless, for all the wisdom you intend to assure us they contain. It is by no means certain that "Hitler was preventable." The "stab in the back myth" which was at the heart of the resentments of the German people which Hitler exploited was created by Ludendorf before the Allies had even convened the Paris Peace Conference. It is not unreasonable to suggest that the Great War was one of history's few examples of an inevitable event. Your basis for your contentions is based soley upon an allegation that the "salvation" of humanity can only arise from the acceptance of religious dogma as you retail it--and there are few notions which i could find more ridiculous.

Good Day

Firstly the argument that one has to demonstrate that something or someone exists in order for that thing or being to be is foolish. Before the New World was discovered many in the Old World were unaware of there existence. Does this mean that the continent of North America and South America did not exist until after discovery? Newton's demonstration of gravity did not put gravity into existence. Gravity was there before his demonstration and would have still been there if there was no demonstration. Cancer is present in the body before there is any demonstration or symptoms. Does this mean that a person does not have cancer if there is no demonstration or symptoms.
Your inability to see, and comprehend does not negate existence.

Secondly I am in the process of demonstrating through the Scriptures that there is a God and all that is happening and that has happened is written in the Scriptures. You all have just been repeating patterns and are in the midst of repeating the same pattern from the not so distant past. It will take some time.

Peace

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Are you talking about Tribulation or the Great Tribulation? There is a difference.

I don't believe that God's true children will be here for the Great Tribulation. I believe they will be taken in the Rapture and those that are left beind are those that have either decided against God or have not made a choice yet.

Why would God make his true children go through the Great Tribulation?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Are you talking about Tribulation or the Great Tribulation? There is a difference.

I don't believe that God's true children will be here for the Great Tribulation. I believe they will be taken in the Rapture and those that are left beind are those that have either decided against God or have not made a choice yet.

Why would God make his true children go through the Great Tribulation?

Surely, though, it would be unChristian for the Christians to leave the world behind and leave people to suffer? After all, didn't Jesus help people regardless of who they were?

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Everyone has the same opportunity to go, Wolfie. Not all will choose to do so.

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Mindonfire wrote:

Setanta wrote:
Mindonfire wrote:
Everything is not God's fault.

Certainly this is correct--in that you cannot demonstrate that any god exists, it would indeed be foolish to blame the figment of someone's imagination for anything.

Quote:
Man's ignorance and arrogance is to blame.

Although the inferential evidence is strong that few members here are more familiar with ignorance and arrogance--there is absolutely no reason to assume that there is any one problem or set of problems which fatally threaten us for which each and every member of humanity is responsible.

Quote:
Man is responsible for the predicament that he is currently in and the great calamity that is about to occur.

Your "predicament" is putative and undemonstrated. You provide no evidence that a "great calamity" is about to occur.

Quote:
You can't escape God. He is real.

You have not demonstrated that any god exists, therefore this is mere nonsense.

Quote:
Most people are unaware that everything that is going on in the world is written in plain English in the Scriptures.

The scriptures were not written in English, and there is nothing either plain nor self-evident about the language upon which you base the allegations you have made based upon your idiosyncratic exegesis.

Quote:
And most of it was preventable. Most things are preventable but the problem is that people only notice after the fact. Hitler was preventable, WWI and WWII were preventabel.

These are statements from authority, without foundation or evidence, and sufficiently vague as to be meaningless, for all the wisdom you intend to assure us they contain. It is by no means certain that "Hitler was preventable." The "stab in the back myth" which was at the heart of the resentments of the German people which Hitler exploited was created by Ludendorf before the Allies had even convened the Paris Peace Conference. It is not unreasonable to suggest that the Great War was one of history's few examples of an inevitable event. Your basis for your contentions is based soley upon an allegation that the "salvation" of humanity can only arise from the acceptance of religious dogma as you retail it--and there are few notions which i could find more ridiculous.

Good Day

Firstly the argument that one has to demonstrate that something or someone exists in order for that thing or being to be is foolish. Before the New World was discovered many in the Old World were unaware of there existence. Does this mean that the continent of North America and South America did not exist until after discovery? Newton's demonstration of gravity did not put gravity into existence. Gravity was there before his demonstration and would have still been there if there was no demonstration. Cancer is present in the body before there is any demonstration or symptoms. Does this mean that a person does not have cancer if there is no demonstration or symptoms.
Your inability to see, and comprehend does not negate existence.

Secondly I am in the process of demonstrating through the Scriptures that there is a God and all that is happening and that has happened is written in the Scriptures. You all have just been repeating patterns and are in the midst of repeating the same pattern from the not so distant past. It will take some time.

Peace

Ah but these things like gravity, the new world, and cancer can be scientifically proven, while the existance of a "god" can not be. Also you say that all that is happening and has happend is written in the scriptures??...... you are freakin retarded Laughing

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Momma Angel wrote:

Everyone has the same opportunity to go, Wolfie. Not all will choose to do so.

But if those who choose to go are being unChristians, surely God will punish them and send them back? Therefore, no one will actually go up...

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Forgive me for saying so, jin_kazama, but that's pretty rude to call someone freakin reatarded just because you don't share their views or beliefs.

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Mindonfire wrote:

Firstly the argument that one has to demonstrate that something or someone exists in order for that thing or being to be is foolish.

I haven't said that this were the case. I have said that absent any demonstration on your part that a deity exists, there is no good reason to accpet your statements about said deity. You state as a fact that a god exists. You don't provide any evidence. Therefore, there is no reason to believe you.

Quote:

Before the New World was discovered many in the Old World were unaware of there existence. Does this mean that the continent of North America and South America did not exist until after discovery?

Of course not. If by this you suggest that your god remains undiscovered, however, than you have to provide the evidence for the discovery to be a reality. As a matter of fact though, the ancient Greeks thought that purely for reason of symmetry and balance, there must be another continent to the west of the Atlantic--hence the Atlantis myths. Additionally, Norge such as Eric Ruddi had visited North America, and fishermen commonly landed on the continent to dry, smoke or salt their catch before returning to Europe. In the many tens of thousands of years of the existence of homo sapiens sapiens, no one has demonstrated the existence of a god, nor made the "discovery." Once again, absent any proof, there is no reason to accept statements from authority by you concerning your imaginary friend.

Quote:

Newton's demonstration of gravity did not put gravity into existence. Gravity was there before his demonstration and would have still been there if there was no demonstration.

Newton did not "demonstrate" gravity. He described and qualified a known attribute of the physical world.

Quote:

Cancer is present in the body before there is any demonstration or symptoms. Does this mean that a person does not have cancer if there is no demonstration or symptoms.

It is amusing to see you compare your deity to a cancerous growth, but it proves nothing. Once again, there is no reason to accept your unsupported statements.

Quote:

Your inability to see, and comprehend does not negate existence.

I can comprehend the dog and pony show you're trying to peddle here--i just don't buy it. I can't "see" it because you have failed to show it. Show me your god, and i'm prepared to believe.

Quote:

Secondly I am in the process of demonstrating through the Scriptures that there is a God and all that is happening and that has happened is written in the Scriptures. You all have just been repeating patterns and are in the midst of repeating the same pattern from the not so distant past. It will take some time.

It's going to take you a hell of a long time. Upon what basis should anyone either accept the scripture is definitive, or that your exegesis is correct?

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Wolfie,

Do you mean unChristian in the fact that they sin or unChristian in the fact that they reject Jesus?

Those that reject Jesus won't be going, so there won't be a need to send them back.

Setanta, it's called faith. :wink:

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Momma Angel wrote:

Wolfie,

Do you mean unChristian in the fact that they sin or unChristian in the fact that they reject Jesus?

Well, they won't be following the teaching of Christ. What does that count as? If they're going to be raptured up, surely, they are rejecting Christ's teachings by not helping those in need? Therefore, they either get sent back or won't be raptured up in the first place.

If then the real Christians stay behind to help those in need, surely then no one gets taken up to Heaven?

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