Graduating student has an interview...HELP! (details inside)

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After three long hard years, I'm finally going to graduate! Very Happy

Anyway, I've been interning with a good firm in a field of law I really enjoy for the past semester. I was planning on having a "talk" with the partners about staying on as an attorney soon, but I kind of forced their hand.

A partner found out I had an interview with the DA's office, called me into his office, and basically said that they were very impressed with my work product so far and wanted me on after I take the bar in July.

THE BIG QUESTION:

I don't know what the tricks are when it comes to negotiating salary! Please take a look at the pros/cons below and share any tips you may have for me... I'm really nervous about the process, and I don't want to shoot myself in the foot on this one.

THE PROS:

* I am the only bilingual person in the office, and as a result, they have been able to take Spanish speaking clients (I've also brought in a few cases and it impressed them). There is the potential for the firm to make good money from the work they can get with me there.

* They know I've been interviewing with other firms (although they believe I've been interviewing with more than I actually have). I don't lie, I just don't go into detail about it. Honestly though, it's a tossup between the DA's office and this place

* This place is not far from all my friends, family and good shopping. The location is just great.

* The firm has a good reputation for this particular field of law. If I bust my ass, I can really make a name for myself and help a lot of people.

THE BIG CON

* The firm has a reputation for paying first year associates bupkis. They get many applications, and as a result, have the upper hand in this regard. I'm going to be graduating with A LOT of school debt, I'm going to be moving out at the same time, and a low salary is going to be really tough to handle (note: my grades aren't good enough to get into another top firm... my inside line at this place is really key to even being able to apply)

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The only thing I know about how lawyers get paid is the lawyer I pay for and he makes a fortune.

Personally, I think I would try to figure out how to live on bupkis for a year because it sounds like a good job.

Really I just thought I would give you a bump. There are several attorneys on A2K who should be able to help you sort this out.

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Congrats, JAO! Sounds like you're in an enviable position, and that you got yourself there. Good for you!

Do you know anything about how hard it is to find a good job in your area? The "many applications" thing makes me think that maybe there just aren't that many better jobs around. Do you want to move for your job?

It seems like a year of bubkes could be well worth it, especially in that you have the advantage over other applicants in already KNOWING that you have something they want, and that you're therefore likely to get through that year (while other newbies may or may not...)

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Congrats from me too, JAO (and if I've never mentioned it before, let me take this opportunity to say yours is one of my favorite a2k avatars, it always makes me smile).

On the job choice, I am not in the field of law myself, so I am not so sure about timing re working in the DA's office, but it seems to me you have leeway to do that later, but that right now is your opportunity for the job in your present office.

Bupkis, ah well, you're young, the debt will still wait for you, and the job is potentially really interesting and helpful to people, no?

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sozobe wrote:

It seems like a year of bubkes could be well worth it, especially in that you have the advantage over other applicants in already KNOWING that you have something they want, and that you're therefore likely to get through that year (while other newbies may or may not...)

That seems to be the main theme so far. So far, this place is probably where I'm going to stay.

I understand regardless of the situation, I'll just have to take that hit financially (the "loans will wait" as it was said here, is true... thanks to deferments). I'm just looking to soften the blow as much as possible. I can't really just ask other attorneys what they make (I sort of hinted at it with one new guy there, and he was the one that gave me the "bupkis" figure, but he didn't give me a number range).

I just don't want them to think I'm going to get some experience and leave. I'm looking to settle down and stick with the place for the long term, so they might consider starting me off with a slightly higher number. I just don't know how to pull that off without looking desperate.

Anyway, thanks a bunch for the $.02 and the pats on the back. I really appreciate it.

Sozobe: I found out that where I live, there is a terrible shortage of positions for attorneys. Lots of soon to be graduates, and not a lot of jobs. I personally know two of my friends who moved to Florida to look for work recently. The only thing that mitigates this fact is that there are not too many graduates that are bilingual, so I've got a bit of a let up in that regard.

Thanks again, peoples... Smile

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Attorney pay: http://www.payscale.com/research/vid-29471/fid-6886
http://www.nalp.org/press/details.php?id=56

This one is by firm: http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insider/payscale.tcl
Here it is for Mass. (I can't recall where you live, Justan): http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insider/payscale.tcl?state=MA
And here it is for (just grabbing this firm at random) Brown Rudnick Berlack Israels:
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=MA0080

So you may be able to get some pretty specific information.

If you can't get good, specific information, you can do some estimating.

I used to analyze law firm rates for an insurance company so that the company could determine whether to give an outside counsel firm a raise. The main axiom I worked from is that similar firms offering similar services should get similar pay -- and, if that holds true, then the corollary should also be true -- that the pay to the associates will be similar as well.

Here are the factors I took into consideration:

* [u][b]Geographic area[/b][/u]. Firms in direct competition with each other tend to charge similar amounts. But you need to know what's a good, reasonable geographic area. For Illinois, for example, the main area is Chicagoland (Chicago and environs), then the rest of the state tends to all shake out together, even though it's not all contiguous. In California, there are two really big geographic centers, LA and SF, with the Long Beach/San Diego area all the way to the South being kind of a third area. California divides fairly neatly at right about Fresno. New York has several centers: NYC, Albany, Buffalo, Long Island and possibly Binghamton/Syracuse or even Poughkeepsie but I usually just averaged Buffalo and Albany for those. * [u][b]Work product[/b][/u]. An environmental torts firm has a far different rate structure (and presumably a different pay structure) from a tax firm. White-shoe firms are in a league of their own. For absolute specialties, you may need to scrap geography and just look at the few firms that do that kind of work. For more generalized firms, or firms with more common specialties (e. g. while Workers' Comp. is technically a specialty, it's done by hundreds of firms, so you should be able to hit geography in addition to specialty as a point of comparison), you can compare both specialty and geography. Sizing up all of the Dallas asbestos litigation firms (for example) should give you a good set of stats without too many wacky outliers.

And here are some additional comparatives, just for you:

* [u][b]Cost of living in the area[/b][/u]. Google local stores, not just for your area but for a comparable area, and look at a market basket of goods: milk, bread, eggs, that sort of thing. What does gas cost in the area when compared with the rest of the country? Housing? Local taxes? A $100,000 job in Kansas City is not the same as a $100,000 job in DC. Even though you may not be interested in moving, you can get a sense of what "bupkis" really means -- and whether that attorney was being realistic. * [u][b]What they pay at competitors[/b][/u]. This goes along with geography and specialty. You have an offer from, say, A__ firm, and you have info for B__, C__ and D__ firms. You may find that A___ is at the bottom, but maybe not by much. Or maybe it's by a lot. * [b][u]Find out what is paid in the second year[/u][/b], if you can (or work from competitors' information if necessary). You might just be paying your dues for one year. If so, that should be no big deal, so long as you can pay your rent and basically keep yourself from racking up any more debt during the first year out. One job offer I received after graduation was for a firm that was so chintzy, it was clerical worker-type money. For a law school grad, waiting to hear about the Bar! That firm thought that they were "providing a valuable service" by "teaching" someone like me and "polishing" me as a lawyer. That was a load of BS. I found another job for twice that salary and, BTW, I wasn't a terribly polished lawyer after my first year, so that "education" would have been expensive -- and fairly useless. * [u][b]Ask your friends[/b][/u], see if anyone will spill about their offers. They might not, but it's worth a shot, so long as you are respectful, not gossipy and swear up and down (and mean it, and live it!) to not tell anyone else. * [u][b]Find out from the firm what kind of a cut you get on business you bring in[/b][/u]. Clearly, you are already doing that. The firm may pay garbage because they expect you to be a rainmaker from the start. And you're okay, as you are already doing that (whereas others aren't. Personally, I never got the hang of it). If you get a decent cut of the rain you're making, the base salary will be helpful and it will be something you can count on, but the real money will be in rain -- and then it won't matter quite so much if the base salary isn't stellar.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

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jespah,

I can't thank you enough! Your help is really, really appreciated! Thanks for giving me a great point in the right direction.

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I can't really add anything to what jespah has written. Congratulations and good luck, Justan

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My pleasure, Justan. We all want you to do well.

<shniff> Joe, our little one is growing up.

<blows nose in hanky, making loud honking sound>

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Ok, figured you guys might like an update...

I went on an important appointment with with the firm (regarding some clients) today. It went great. The investigator liked me as well as the case we had, and I can see some real potential with the firm.

Better yet, the attorney I went with let me drive his 2006 Mercedes Benz CLK back from our way from our appointment while talking about the potential this firm has for people with initiative (of which I am one). Looks good! Very Happy

In any case, I see real potential with this place. They like me, they know I'm in demand with other firms, and it looks like they want to keep me. I'm thinking this can really work out with everyone involved.

I'll give you all an update after I get my final interview. Thanks again for all the support, it's truly appreciated!

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Thanks for the update! Knock 'em dead!

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Graduating student has an interview...HELP! (details inside)

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