John 3:16

Quote:

Joe of course buys the story without a blink. Sure, I guess we are to believe Joe never read or heard about Leviticus.

Actually, Joe was ready to kick Mary out, until an Angel came and explained the situation to him.

As for the sacrificial lambs, they were a symbol of the sacrifice to come, and were meant to stop when the messiah arrived....of course, the Jews don't believe that Jesus was the messiah.

As for the original text of John 3:16, I've never seen it as contrary in terms of what it says by itself (btw, dying is a sacrifice, even if you rise again...I certainly wouldn't want to do it, even if I knew I was coming back to life 3 days later)...what I do find contrary is that this one text says all you need to do is believe in him...then other parts of the Bible say you have to be baptised, others that you must be good, others that you must love God etc etc etc.

0 Replies

"satisfying His jollies"? as well as showing a lack of respect Mesquite,
you repeatedly display your rude and uncouth manner.

kate4christ03 wrote:

This was a sacrifice to God, because he had to watch the son he loved die for the sins of others. And this was a sacrifice for Christ because he was sinless yet willingly died for sinners. THere is no greater love than one of complete self sacrifice.

You think God enjoyed watching His only Son suffer and die?

I don't think we can comprehend what both God and Jesus went through
during that time. The Bible says that "God made him who had no sin to be sin" (II Cor. 5:21) God caused Jesus to take upon himself all our sin.
This was necessary so the ministry of reconciliation could take place.
God condemned His only Son, for God is holy and cannot tolerate sin.
The divine and human natures of Jesus were never separated, even during the crucifixion. Yet it is clear, difficult as it is to explain, that Jesus'
intimate fellowship with God the Father was temporarily broken as he took the sin of the entire world on himself. So Jesus suffered physically
and we have no idea what mental and spiritual anguish he went through
during that separation. And God had to watch this happen to His only
Son for our sake.

"satisying His jollies, huh?"

can you get any cruder than that? (rhetorical question)

0 Replies

I think i'm still gonna go with the age-old argument, if god can do anything, then all the sin **** is completely uneccesarry.

Christians:
As mesquite pointed out, why in the old testement is God all wrathful, saying stuff like 'an eye for an eye...' and then in the new testement, when jesus (who had existed all the time, apparently) comes along, everything changes?
mesquite is right, he doesn't sound a bit like dad.

0 Replies

Quote:

I don't think we can comprehend what both God and Jesus went through during that time.

I think the above is as rude to God as Mesquite's 'jollies' remark. What an odd idea. How can an all powerful all knowing supernatural being go 'through' anything? What? Jehovah's got a boo-boo?

This whole set-up of a god sacrificing something to us humans is part of the con game. Oh, see God gave up his only son, so we as his creatures must worship and adore Him.

Wait. God doesn't change. Right?

So He cannot sacrifice his son anymore than he can give up candy for Lent.

There is nothing sacrificed, nothing given up, nothing lost.

Joe(except your minds)Nation

0 Replies

tomasso wrote:

"satisfying His jollies"? as well as showing a lack of respect Mesquite,
you repeatedly display your rude and uncouth manner.

You are correct tomasso, I have absolutely no respect for fictional horror stories and at the top of my list for disrespect are ones that are responsible for untold human suffering.

tomasso wrote:

kate4christ03 wrote:
This was a sacrifice to God, because he had to watch the son he loved die for the sins of others. And this was a sacrifice for Christ because he was sinless yet willingly died for sinners. THere is no greater love than one of complete self sacrifice.

You think God enjoyed watching His only Son suffer and die?

What other rational conclusion is there to explain such actions from an all knowing all powerful diety.

tomasso wrote:

I don't think we can comprehend what both God and Jesus went through
during that time. The Bible says that "God made him who had no sin to be sin" (II Cor. 5:21) God caused Jesus to take upon himself all our sin.
This was necessary so the ministry of reconciliation could take place.
God condemned His only Son, for God is holy and cannot tolerate sin.
The divine and human natures of Jesus were never separated, even during the crucifixion. Yet it is clear, difficult as it is to explain, that Jesus'
intimate fellowship with God the Father was temporarily broken as he took the sin of the entire world on himself. So Jesus suffered physically
and we have no idea what mental and spiritual anguish he went through
during that separation. And God had to watch this happen to His only
Son for our sake.

To express the wanton torture and murder of ones own child as an act of love is an extremely sick proposition to my eyes. My use plain straight language is the only way I can see to describe such passages. If it helps even one person see through the nonsense, so much the better.

tomasso wrote:

"satisying His jollies, huh?"

Isn't that one of the prime motivators for psychopaths?

tomasso wrote:

can you get any cruder than that? (rhetorical question)

I will try. Click here (non-rhetorical answer)

0 Replies

kate4christ03 wrote:

ashers the point of Christ's sacrifice was to give us a way to God. God is Holy and can't have a personal relationship with anyone because of our sins. In the old testament, a blood sacrifice of an umblemished animal was needed to cleanse sin. It had to be done over and over. And even then, it wasn't enough to fully cleanse of sin. That is why God sent Jesus to be our atonement for sins. His death was sufficient to forgive all sins and give us a way to have a relationship with God. Now that doesn't negate our responsibility for the sins we commit. Christ taught that we have to come to him in faith and repent of our sins. We are told, that when we sin, we have to repent and there are still consequences for our sins. The bible says God will chastise us for sinning. So, it's not like we get off and get a free ticket to continually sin without taking responsibility for our actions.

Kate, I understand, I shouldn't imply that Christians feel that faith in Jesus alone is enough for salvation etc. That said, you raise an interesting point with regard to God chastising us for our sins. Chastising in what sense? I'm thinking punishment of course but, physical punishment? We follow God's rules because we'll be punished otherwise? I'd prefer people to act in kindness, for example, because kindness is it's own reward. I want people to act out of love rather than fear, what good purpose does chastising serve, it seems like a somewhat childish trial and error routine between ourselves and god to me. Sometimes a parent must lay down the law with little or no real explanation but children grow and our actions towards them must grow in kind. We begin to see more of a mutually equal relationship in time, with more give and take as child becomes an adult and they start to function on the same level, hopefully both in terms of emotion and intellect. If we are forever locked in a relationship with god that is defined as teacher/student, master/slave, speaker/listener, law giver/law receiver, our growth as people is surely stunted.

I like the idea of self organising or self governing systems, they seem more flexible and open ended, I guess some people see them as too open and too easily manipulated. In an absolute system, why does no one question the absolute rules though? What if the parent is wrong? But God is perfect and all knowing of course. If this is true though, it makes sense to me that he would want people to find their own path using guidance and tips rather than laws and punishment inducing fear. I just don't like the idea of someone being coerced into acting a certain way through fear or even just respect for authority, it seems like such a person would be likely to snap at any moment. Fear produces fear, heaven cannot be a place of fear and respect for authority surely? It would be an all embracing place no?

0 Replies

The Pentacle Queen wrote:

I think i'm still gonna go with the age-old argument, if god can do anything, then all the sin is completely unnecessary.

Is there anything God can't do?

You probably expect a "no" in answer to this question. But, in reality, there are some things that God cannot do. He could never tell a lie, He cannot go back on His word, He cannot be evil, or lust after the things of the world. God cannot go against His nature. His nature consists of all that is pure, righteous, holy and just. Anything outside of those parameters, God cannot do.

The things that He can do should be the focus of this question. He can forgive sins, He can love the unlovable and He can grant eternal life to those who believe in Him. That is a miraculous God!

And the word miraculous is the key. It shows the utmost of pride to claim that our finite human brains are able to totally comprehend the infinite.

Is it possible to measure or totally explain love, forgiveness or faith???
No, these things are beyond our ability to fully grasp, yet many of you
sound like you have all the answers, namely by trusting in yourselves
and your limited powers of understanding to explain or demand full
explanation.

Mesquite, it is not my purpose to be rude with this, but I truly believe the Almighty is due a certain degree of respect, after all, as Creator He definitely knows more than we do and He does love us and reaches out
to us through His Son. Your comment yesterday just really caught me
at a bad time, but I wrote what I had to.

ps- In order to avoid your disrespect, I think I'll pass on your link.

0 Replies

tomasso wrote:

ps- In order to avoid your disrespect, I think I'll pass on your link.

That's a good idea. It might just make you rethink "His nature consists of all that is pure, righteous, holy and just. Anything outside of those parameters, God cannot do."

Then again, it probably wouldn't.

0 Replies

tomasso wrote:

But, in reality, there are some things that God cannot do. He could never tell a lie

Oh?
Genesis

God wrote:

2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

tomasso wrote:

Mesquite, it is not my purpose to be rude with this, but I truly believe the Almighty is due a certain degree of respect, after all, as Creator He definitely knows more than we do and He does love us and reaches out
to us through His Son. Your comment yesterday just really caught me
at a bad time, but I wrote what I had to.

ps- In order to avoid your disrespect, I think I'll pass on your link.

You certainly have every right to respect or not respect as you so choose as do I.

Yes that was a wise choice to avoid the link for it went directly to an online bible where you would have been presented with one of Biblegod's tirades. It was one of those R rated ones where he just goes on and on and on, even threatening to make women eat their children. Yep, best to avoid it for it is hardly respect building material.

0 Replies

Re: John 3:16

Diest TKO wrote:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I never understood why sacrificing ones son is necessary for accomplishing that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish." I mean, whose choice is it that some people who believe in god did perish? God's! Why can't he just stop making them perish?

0 Replies

Quote:

Why can't he just stop making them perish?

What? And spoil all those chances for better theatre?

Joe(we shall build huge edifices... )Nation

0 Replies

Quote:

The Pentacle Queen wrote:
I think i'm still gonna go with the age-old argument, if god can do anything, then all the sin is completely unnecessary.

tomasso wrote

Is there anything God can't do?

You probably expect a "no" in answer to this question. But, in reality, there are some things that God cannot do. He could never tell a lie, He cannot go back on His word, He cannot be evil, or lust after the things of the world. God cannot go against His nature. His nature consists of all that is pure, righteous, holy and just. Anything outside of those parameters, God cannot do.

The things that He can do should be the focus of this question. He can forgive sins, He can love the unlovable and He can grant eternal life to those who believe in Him. That is a miraculous God!

And the word miraculous is the key. It shows the utmost of pride to claim that our finite human brains are able to totally comprehend the infinite.

Is it possible to measure or totally explain love, forgiveness or faith???
No, these things are beyond our ability to fully grasp, yet many of you
sound like you have all the answers, namely by trusting in yourselves
and your limited powers of understanding to explain or demand full
explanation.

Tomasso, so you are saying that your God is not omnipotent? He can't tell a lie? Surely you mean he chooses not to.
Here's a bit from mesquite's link, which you choose not to read.

Quote:

Deu 28:20
The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

That doesn't sound like a God who can only be holy, richeous, etc.
It is a christian belief that god gave us free will to choose to love him or not. Above, God is punishing people who disobey him, or 'forsake him'. Why is it bad not to love him?
It's the euthyphro dilemma: If god sends out cursings and plagues thats fine, but if you covert their neighbours horse, you're going straight to hell.

What ive said is a bit muddled i'll admit. But thats because there is so much to argue against, that I got side tracked every time i tried to write a point.
I don't have all the answers, but at least I don't claim to.
There is so much that christainity doesn't answer, I think it's really foolish to just to say 'well god is too complex for our imaginations.'
the whole thing's a get-out-clause.

0 Replies

Pentacle Queen,

You said you don't have all the answers, is that your "get-out" clause?

I've never claimed to have them myself, but I said that we humans in our present state are just not capable of understanding everything.

Many seem to have the tendency to put the Creator of the universe on the same plane as us humans. I think the last thing we can do is claim EQUAL RIGHTS with Him who made the heavens and earth.

"Look at the worldly and all who set themselves up above the people of
God, has not God's image and His truth been distorted in them? They have science; but in science there is nothing but what is the object of perception. The spiritual world, the higher part of man's being is rejected altogether, dismissed with a sort of triumph, even with hatred. The world has proclaimed the reign of freedom, especially of late, but what do we see in this freedom? Nothing but self - destruction!" Dostoevsky

If you covet your neighbor's horse, it shows you have a problem and that problem is sin. God cannot tolerate sin, but loved us enough to reach out through His Son, Jesus Christ to pay the price for all our sins.

0 Replies

Sometimes I think I understood Christian views better than Christians themselves...From a Christian point of view : God is omnipotent, but can't do some things because those some things go against his very nature...(you could probably include principles in this argument - principles are absolute, they never change...only the circumstances change)

...now whether or not you agree with said nature (and principles) is another thing altogether.

0 Replies

If God cannot tolerate sin, I'm wondering why it would be such a leap to place ourselves on the same level as he who created the heavens and the earth etc. Besides, if you see no static self, only process and relationship, there is no "thing" to place on a benchmark with "God", "we" are already one with "him" when resting in the moment etc. To see such a static self in relation to God is to distance yourself from such a god altogether.

0 Replies

I don't have a get out clause Tomasso. I don't have any 'answers'
I think that we are all here, and things happen.
At least you can't pick holes in that.

You say you haven't got all the answers, but you're happy to quote things at me and try and prove you're right.

The bottom line is:
You believe in god. I don't.
Our opinions are too different to even meet a middle ground whislt debating.

0 Replies

vikorr wrote:

Sometimes I think I understood Christian views better than Christians themselves...From a Christian point of view : God is omnipotent, but can't do some things because those some things go against his very nature.

OK , how 'bout He WILL not do some things because those things go against who He is.

God COULD do anything. He WILL NOT do that which He does not want to do.

0 Replies

real life wrote:

OK , how 'bout He WILL not do some things because those things go against who He is.

God COULD do anything. He WILL NOT do that which He does not want to do.

Well, after reading about what He WILL do I am not really all that concerned about what HE will NOT do.

0 Replies

mesquite wrote:

real life wrote:
OK , how 'bout He WILL not do some things because those things go against who He is.

God COULD do anything. He WILL NOT do that which He does not want to do.

Well, after reading about what He WILL do I am not really all that concerned about what HE will NOT do.

I agree.

There's no point in cursing man. We have enough strife as is. Even if you have ultmate/endless power, why invest any of it to vex another lesser creature?

slightly off topic, but again, I agree.

0 Replies

Also:
Whats the point of creating a universe just for people to praise you and say how great you are all the time?
That is so self-centred.

0 Replies

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know