John 3:16

I often wonder about this myself. But here is the solution I have come up with. God sent his only son to be human, and die like a human (in a very painful, and degrading way). Now I'm not saying that crucifiction is the only atrocity to ever occur. So when you look at in relation to other human atrocites, Jesus' death hardly seems like it would be able to make up for an entire world's sins. But here's the kicker: Jesus is God (in Christian Theology). And for God to suffer for humans is incredibly degrading. Sure he rises again. But that does not nullify the sacrifice. It only finishes off the promise that God made with this. One, Jesus suffered and died for our sins, but two, we are able to have second life by this. And he has second life as symbolism of our second life. Sorry for no paragraphing - it's 1AM.

That makes sense.But still, as opposed to what. Is God's ultimate sacrifice he dignaty (pride)?

Yes, I would say so. God humbled himself.

My point. We value our pride most. I think there are greater things.

I dont think this post was about quoting the bible. It was about understanding it. Your cartoon is out of place.

This is one of the many absurdities in christian religion.

If god sent jesus to make the ultimate sacrifice, and this ultimate sacrifice is the foundation of the faith...
You would think there would be an actual sacrifice. There wasn't
If jesus was indeed 'god in the flesh', he would have known the future already. He would have known his 'ultimate sacrifice' would be no more than a temporary prick in his side. Like dying in a video game.
What a dupe
Good thing believers and clergy have turned exegesis into a fine art of evasion, or this may have caused them some philosophical problems.

Indeed. Though a large portion of the martyr hocus pocus is wrapped up in the actual torture and crucifixion of Jesus. Perhaps that be the sacrifice what them all got they drawers in a wad 'bout.

Sure, the catholics really love to ham up that bit.
But even so, to an 'eternal' being, knowing ahead of time about every lash and every nail, and knowing it would be a fleeting event in it's immeasurable lifespan...
I'm left asking..ya..so what.

For what it's worth, the bible's point of view:

Of course, it wasn't God who came to earth to provide what could only be termed a meaningless gesture, it was Jesus, a separate individual, God's firstborn, who was present for all of creation. He experienced death and was resurrected not by his own trinitarian power, but by the will of his father.

Of course he knew that his resurrection was sure. That is what faith is.

Those who doubt that Jesus had a prehuman existence should read the 8th chapter of Proverbs, paying particular attention to vss. 22-31.

There is a good discussion about why Jesus' sacrifice was necessary in the 5th chapter of Romans. I call your attention to vss. 12-21.

this has come up in conversation recently, so I thought I'd bump.

What I always thought when I was little was:
In the old testement, the jews had to sacrafice an animal to make themselves forgiven again, or something.
So God sent Jesus to be sacrificed, so that people wouldn't have to sacrifice animals, they would just pray to jesus to forgive them instead, and there would be less killing.
If we accept that jesus died on the cross to save our sins, then we get into heaven. Presumeably because we will be 'sin free' again.

God sacrificed jesus for our benefit, whether it was of any cost to him we will never know, and in some ways is irrelevant.

while neo and i disagree on the belief that Christ is God, he is correct that Christ in preincarnate form, knew he would have to die. The whole point of the sacrifice was so humans could have a personal relationship with God, and that would only be possible by a sacrifice. This was a sacrifice to God, because he had to watch the son he loved die for the sins of others. And this was a sacrifice for Christ because he was sinless yet willingly died for sinners. THere is no greater love than one of complete self sacrifice. And don't make light of the resurrection bc according to scripture if Christ didn't rise from the grave, then sin would not have been conquered. And we would still be lost in our sins. 1corinthians 15:14-18

This is strictly to you neo sense you say you believe in the bible.


1Ti 3:16 And2532 without controversy3672 great3173 is2076 the3588 mystery3466 of godliness:2150 God2316 was manifest5319 in1722 the flesh,4561 justified1344 in1722 the Spirit,4151 seen3700 of angels,32 preached2784 unto1722 the Gentiles,1484 believed on4100 in1722 the world,2889 received up353 into1722 glory.1391

Those numbers correspond the strong concordance entries.

Down below this are the Greek entries for

"God was manifest in the flesh"

(( Note:: the ""&#788"" type like numbers are symbols that did not copy correctly))
G3672
ὁμολογουμένως
homologoumenōs
hom-ol-og-ow-men'-oce
Adverb of present passive participle of G3670; confessedly: - without controversy.


(( Controversy is disagreeing with each other. You Neo are disagreeing with what the bible says by saying God did not come in the flesh.

Mat 1:23 Behold,2400 a virgin3933 shall be with child,2192, 1722, 1064 and2532 shall bring forth5088 a son,5207 and2532 they shall call2564 his846 name3686 Emmanuel,1694 which3739 being interpreted3177 is,2076 God2316 with3326 us.2257

Jesus was God with us according the bible.))

G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].


G5319
φανερόω
phaneroō
fan-er-o'-o
From G5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively): - appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).



G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); "in", at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.


G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

I don't see any merit in the idea of sin myself, the idea Jesus died for my sins seems to be one of the stranger ones doing the rounds that's for sure. Why would I want an innocent party to take the fall for my mess? That's just sly. Personally, if I mess up ("sin"), I want to attempt to rectify the problem and learn something in the process, if I've wronged someone/something, I'd want to apologise, I certainly wouldn't want someone else doing these things on my behalf. Where is the learning process in that? Where is the growth? As I say, I don't believe in sin but if anything, appreciating, accepting or thanking someone for taking the fall for my mistake/s genuinely seems far from ideal to me. So Jesus died for my sins, and in accepting such a generous offer, I'd say I'm kinda "sinning". In the sense of doing wrong.

Or at least, if Jesus wiped the slate clean, my reaction to his sacrifice seems vital to how clean the slate stays in the future. It might be a nice thing for someone to take the fall for the mistake of another and I might appreciate the courage it took for this person, the self sacrifice, but personally, I'd feel pretty bad, certainly an opportunity has been lost. Seems like people need to both make mistakes and accept future consequences on the chin to evolve & learn.

I agree with ashers, I don't think sin is neccesarilly a bad thing. In fact I don't really believe in 'sin' or 'bad.'
Things just happen, and they have consequences.

ashers the point of Christ's sacrifice was to give us a way to God. God is Holy and can't have a personal relationship with anyone because of our sins. In the old testament, a blood sacrifice of an umblemished animal was needed to cleanse sin. It had to be done over and over. And even then, it wasn't enough to fully cleanse of sin. That is why God sent Jesus to be our atonement for sins. His death was sufficient to forgive all sins and give us a way to have a relationship with God. Now that doesn't negate our responsibility for the sins we commit. Christ taught that we have to come to him in faith and repent of our sins. We are told, that when we sin, we have to repent and there are still consequences for our sins. The bible says God will chastise us for sinning. So, it's not like we get off and get a free ticket to continually sin without taking responsibility for our actions.

The Bible indicates that Jesus was more than 'present' for all of creation. He was the Creator.



Now of course, Jesus could NOT have made ALL things if He himself had been 'made' or 'created'. The verse emphasizes that not ANY thing was made that Jesus did not make. Obviously , He did not 'make' or 'create' Himself. Therefore this shows that the Bible does NOT refer to Jesus as 'created', but as 'creator'.




Here again, Christ is clearly referenced, not as simply 'present' at creation, but as the Creator of all things. And He was BEFORE all things.

Of course, He could not be 'before' all created things if he himself was one of the created things.

Therefore this also shows that the Bible clearly regards Jesus as 'creator' , not as 'created'.



This verse clearly shows that it WAS the mighty God, the everlasting Father who came to Earth as a baby.




Here the One who lives and was dead is called Alpha & Omega , the First and the Last



And here the Alpha & Omega says that He is God

It seem odd that if Jesus was around from the beginning that all we heard about for the first several thousand years was about the vengeful, wrathful, jealous god that went around smiting and wiping out cities, nations, and even the whole world one time.

Nary a peep do we hear form Jesus until he is sent down to earth, and what a trip that was. God being the master doer of dirty deeds poofs pregnant a young and betrothed virgin. Joe of course buys the story without a blink. Sure, I guess we are to believe Joe never read or heard about Leviticus.

30 or so odd years later, Jesus begins to talk, but he doesn't sound a bit like Dad. Nope he says forget that eye for an eye stuff, turn the other cheek, do unto others, and all that other wonderful stuff in the beatitudes.

This doesn't last for long. The priests are getting torqued and arrange to have Jesus executed in a particularly horrific and gruesome manner.

We are told that this was all Gods plan and Jesus was aware of it except for that short little lapse when he spoke, " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".

But It was indeed God's plan, a plan to save us from God's terrible sin activated temper, a temper that we were previously doomed to receive since we are all born with sin as a result of God's sting operation on Eve in the Garden of Eden. But I digress. Back to the plan, the wonderful plan.

All that you need to do to save yourself from God's wrath and an eternity of torment is to believe that God completely satisfied his jollies by sacrificing his son to himself. If you can swallow that one, you are home free.

For me that is way way too much to swallow.