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Leftist candidate worries Mexican elite

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 09:20 am
"So my only hope is for a true modern left wing party (a party closer to Chile's Bachelet and Uruguay's Tabaré than to Venezuela's Chavez and Bolivia's Evo) to be able to grow in this country."


Can you say what qualities you like in these parties, Fbaezer?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 09:48 am
I am following this thread to learn, which is why I am not posting too much.
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el pohl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 09:55 am
Ack! Pouring gasoline with todays prices! Outrageous...
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fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 11:48 am
dlowan wrote:
"So my only hope is for a true modern left wing party (a party closer to Chile's Bachelet and Uruguay's Tabaré than to Venezuela's Chavez and Bolivia's Evo) to be able to grow in this country."


Can you say what qualities you like in these parties, Fbaezer?


While putting social justice as the most important element...
-They depend on a coherent program, not on a charismatic personality.
-They respect personal freedoms and rights.
-They allow a larger space to the iniciative of the individual
-They are responsible with national finances.
-They push society and the economic and political forces into a new, lasting, consensus about income distribution.
-They promote citizenship: the organization of the civil society for their rights; not the conversion of potential actors of social change into passive receivers of subsidies and other goodies from the government (or into a clientele who has to support the Leader in exchange for those goodies).
-They do not rely on Nationalism as a way to hide their limitations.
-The do not try to convert class struggle into class hatred, or look for local or foreign scapegoats.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 03:35 pm
leftist candidate
a very interesting thread !
i really don't know much about mexico , central and south-america .
we just came back from a cruise from chile (landed in santiago) , three ports in the southern tip of south-america , around cap horn , buenos aires , three ports in brazil and on to europe via the cape verde islands .
it gave us a small taste of south-america - no doubt unbalanced .
while we enjoyed our vacation/cruise , we were disturbed by the enormous disparities between the rich and the poor . even our local guides - probably upper middle-class - commented on it frequently .
it is hard to understand , that countries with such wealth (resources) can survive with such inequities .
it looked to us as if chile was a relatively balanced country , as we travelled north , the inequities - particularly in brazil - seemed to increase progressively . one has to wonder if these countries will either explode or implode at a certain point in time ?

just as a small point : we were taken "by limousine" - at no charge - to a shopping centre in buenos aires . i have to honestly say , that we had never seen such opulence openly displayed - perhaps we haven't seen much of the world yet ?
hbg
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 03:46 pm
leftist candidate
here is a pix of the shopping centre in B.A. - gallery bullrich .
it seems rather empty , i note that is 10 to 8 (p.m.).
when we visited it was packed with fashionable ladies and gents , we looked somewhat scruffy and out of place among the "fashionistas" -isn't that what they are called ?
hbg

http://www.greatestcities.com/8914pic/904/CP55904.jpg/0510_103.JPG
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 10:09 pm
fbaezer wrote:
dlowan wrote:
"So my only hope is for a true modern left wing party (a party closer to Chile's Bachelet and Uruguay's Tabaré than to Venezuela's Chavez and Bolivia's Evo) to be able to grow in this country."


Can you say what qualities you like in these parties, Fbaezer?


While putting social justice as the most important element...
-They depend on a coherent program, not on a charismatic personality.
-They respect personal freedoms and rights.
-They allow a larger space to the iniciative of the individual
-They are responsible with national finances.
-They push society and the economic and political forces into a new, lasting, consensus about income distribution.
-They promote citizenship: the organization of the civil society for their rights; not the conversion of potential actors of social change into passive receivers of subsidies and other goodies from the government (or into a clientele who has to support the Leader in exchange for those goodies).
-They do not rely on Nationalism as a way to hide their limitations.
-The do not try to convert class struggle into class hatred, or look for local or foreign scapegoats.





Fbaezer, this is probably a really dumb question, and I hope not an insulting one...but, looking at som eof your list above...especially:

"-They depend on a coherent program, not on a charismatic personality.
-They respect personal freedoms and rights."


....is Mexico's democracy tenuous enough that it is at risk of slipping into a populist dictatorship, if you will? I guess I am thinking of a Peron style thing......




( I wish you posted more threads about politics and such in your area....see how thirsty for knowledge we are!~ Yes, I know...not enough time!)
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Apr, 2006 12:59 pm
dlowan wrote:

....is Mexico's democracy tenuous enough that it is at risk of slipping into a populist dictatorship, if you will? I guess I am thinking of a Peron style thing......


I believe it's not so tenuous. I believe our institutions will hold against any attempt to seriously wreck them.
And I think that marks the difference between not wanting AMLO as President and being freaked out about his chances.
0 Replies
 
el pohl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Apr, 2006 01:31 pm
Fbaezer:
Recently I saw a message payed by Saramago in Reforma hailing Elena Poniatowska and defending her against Calderon's attacks. Also, I understand that Sergio Pitón - 2005 Cervantes Prize Winner - stated that Lopez Obrador was the only candidate that could maintain democracy in Mexico.

Why do you think the "intellectuals", or at least some, defend or support López Obrador?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Apr, 2006 04:56 pm
Fbaezer wrote:
"So my only hope is for a true modern left wing party (a party closer to Chile's Bachelet and Uruguay's Tabaré than to Venezuela's Chavez and Bolivia's Evo) to be able to grow in this country."

Just curious - another question for fbaezer, I'm afraid you'll have to accept the role of the local expert here :wink: - if you look back at Allende, do you think he fitted, in comparison, more in the Bachelet vein or the Obrador vein of "Latino" leftism?

Bachelet is formally his political "granddaughter", frontwoman of his party - but, I understand she is, at least socio-economically speaking, something of a Blairite type, so in comparison (looking at the times back then, too) he must have been far more leftist - so I'm thinking perhaps he was more like the more populist strand of today's leftism (Obrador, Kirchner?, even Chavez..) after all? But he didnt share any of the nationalist/authoritarian streak of Chavez, Humala (and Morales?), I dont think?

Anyway, I just dont know enough about it - whats your take on a comparison like that? Or that of any other "latino's" reading along?

(full disclosure: I started wondering about the comparison because I'm uncomfortable with the dilemma of this choice ... I am wary of the clearly more authoritarian, undemocratic type of populist that Chavez (and Humala?) represent. But if the alternative type of "leftism"comes down to a Blairite embrace of free market "reform", like ... Bachelet's? Or wouldnt that be fair (she only just started)? Or like Lula's, in practice... then, in that case, I sure can sympathise with people veering to a more populist shade instead after all ...

Something in between would be nice ... would say, Kirchner - or Obrador really not be somewhere kind of in between?)
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Apr, 2006 05:23 pm
i read an interesteing book : ..."between extremes"... by bryan keenan and john mccarthy recently .
they were two british journalists im prisoned in lebanon during the early 1990's for several years .
they promised each other to travel through chile if they should ever be released .
while it is mainly a travelbook , they also talk to writers and other people and try to get a sense of the political climate after pinochet . i thought it gave me at least a bit of insight into today's chile .
i borrowed it from our local public library - a good read . hbg
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2006 10:41 am
el_pohl,
being an "intellectual", or a great writer does not grant anyone superior political knowledge. Borges always supported the Argentinian military, Pound was pro-Fascist, Saramago is a nostalgic for Soviet-style communism (if you read a little about the heroics of the PCP during the Salazar dictatorship, you'll understand and sympathize, but not necessarily agree).
I haven't read Pitol's assesment. Nice, coming from a man (a writer I respect) who lived all his life in confy diplomatic posts during the PRI era. Instead, Poniatowska, the rich princess-so-called-writer, is a person I don't respect intellectually or politically. Besides "La Noche de Tlatelolco" (which is full of inexactitudes, by the way), all her other books "have fallen from my lap". She's an ignorant with a name: a woman who says writers shouldn't pay taxes, because they're a drag to calculate. Meat sellers can calculate; writers can't, they're to exquisite for that.

nimh,
it's hard to assign a place for López Obrador among the leftist candidates and presidents in Latin America, since Mexico has many differences. If you want to push me, I'll put him somewhere between Kirshner and Chavez.

Allende... different times. True class struggle. He was obviously not as pro-market as Bachelet. But his government had a program based in a deep societal transformation, not subsidies for the poor in exchange of militant support.

And... by the way, even if you, in many aspects, are near the extreme left, you tend to analyse a lot, and that would send you far away from the populists.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2006 04:02 pm
Well, I dont know whether it puts me "near the extreme left"*, but i dont actually necessarily see anything wrong with subsidies for the poor, myself. Especially not in societies where a relatively small upper class is divided from the masses of poor by such an extreme (and often, to all practical purposes, hereditary) gap as exists in many Latin-American countries.





*(Interesting choice of words, btw... I think only the likes of Foxfyre have ever put me in that corner here before. Whereas what's my party (so far), the Green Left, is considered a very "civilized" party here ... rather moderate actually. Hardly the Ligue Communiste Revolutionnaire...

... But then - to be sure - way I've been feeling about politics the last year or so, who knows ... I soon actually might start fitting your description.)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 04:08 pm
Obrador: Los 50 compromisos

---------------------

From The Ousting of Obrador:

Quote:
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 04:10 pm
This sounds good to me - there's an apparent lurking erraticness and a hint of victim complex, but it seems more than compensated by sheer energy and effectiveness in defending the interests of the poor.

World Mayor - The 2004 Finalists: Andres Manuel López Obrador, Mayor of Mexico City

Quote:
Among his first moves were social assistance allowances for the elderly, the handicapped, and single mothers with school age children, and another programme for youth in high-crime areas. He has, as of this date, seen the start of construction of Mexico's first state university, and has built enough new high schools to serve nearly 9000 children. He brought Rudy Giuliani to put into practice the zero tolerance approach to crime that he used as Mayor of New York City, and switched city computers from Microsoft to free Linux operating systems, with the money saved to, again, be used to help the economically disadvantaged.
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fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 06:19 pm
nimh wrote:


Quote:
[..] when a suspected thief was killed by a raging mob just outside the city, he reflected that their action was the real Mexico expressing itself, and that village traditions should not be interfered with [..]


It was not a thief, but three federal police officers who were there investigating narcotics deals...

Quote:


The Brigades of the Sun predate him.


Quote:
Among his first moves were social assistance allowances for the elderly, the handicapped, and single mothers with school age children, and another programme for youth in high-crime areas. He has, as of this date, seen the start of construction of Mexico's first state university, and has built enough new high schools to serve nearly 9000 children. He brought Rudy Giuliani to put into practice the zero tolerance approach to crime that he used as Mayor of New York City, and switched city computers from Microsoft to free Linux operating systems, with the money saved to, again, be used to help the economically disadvantaged. [..]



Several false things on this paragraph. Mexico has public state universities in each and every state. In Mexico City, it has the National University, the National Politechnical Institute and the Metropolitan University. All public, all free, all authonomous, with well over 500,000 students.
Lopez Obrador's university is for those who do not pass the exam to get into the other universities; students grade themselves.

The Giuliani approach was rejected by AMLO's government.
It had to be. Next to an apartment I used to live in, there lived this huge band of squatters-thiefs, who broke into parked cars (there was a jazz place nearby) and mugged costumers. On elections, you see their house full of PRD propaganda.

Quote:


I run everyday in Chapultepec, and I can testify this is a HUGE LIE.
Chapultepec I is taken by street peddlers. Chapultepec II is yellow, litter floats on the lakes (thousand of fish have died) and the boats have been privatized (also the streets inside the park: "guards" without uniform charge you for parking there).
Huge buildings are being built in restricted areas next to Chapultepec Park.

Quote:
Apprehensions may be proving true that the moral energy of the PRD [has] depended to too great a degree on AMLO's own mind and character, [..] and the corruption he has made his enemy would appear to have infiltrated [..] the political structure on which he stands. Videotapes have been broadcast showing senior PRD figures accepting large amounts of money in briefcases and negotiating payoffs [..]. Obrador, whose own record is as impeccable as his stated principles, has reacted with fury, a disavowal of knowledge, and accusations of conspiracy.


He was furious at the fact that his cronies were exposed through illegal videotaping (by a businessman close to a rival faction of the PRD, who alleged he was being blackmailed, and is now in jail... the "senior PRD figures" are free).

0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 06:46 pm
Thanks for your checks, fbaezer.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 06:56 pm
Thanks, fb.
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fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jun, 2006 04:54 pm
On today's New York Times:

June 4, 2006
The Populist at the Border
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SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jun, 2006 09:39 pm
Is the tide finally turning in Mexico?
May 30, 2006

Funny thing about Mexican President Vicente Fox's visit to the American West last week: It didn't turn out as one would have expected.

The tall, lanky, laconic "presidente," who seemed to offer such hope to Mexico when he was elected five years ago, started out in Salt Lake City with the usual emotional cries for "fairness" and "decent treatment of our people." But before his visits to Washington and California were over, it was clear that the background music to the old show had changed dramatically.

Fox was greeted by some of the best in the American intellectual community with an honesty about his abundant failures that has not been seen before. A brilliant paper by professor George W. Grayson of the College of William & Mary, widely circulated before the visit, laid out Mexico's shame:

President Fox makes $236,693 a year, more than the leaders of France, the United Kingdom and Canada; Mexican congressional deputies, who serve only a few months a year, take home at least $148,000 a year, plus a $28,000 "leaving-office bonus" at the end of the term. Meanwhile, Mexico collects taxes equivalent to 9.7 percent of GDP, a figure on a par with Haiti; there is painfully little to spend on education and health care, which means there is no social mobility and little job opportunity.

Professor Grayson ends his paper with: "U.S. leaders and the American public have every right to insist that Mexican officials act responsibly, rather than expecting that their neighbor to the north will shoulder burdens that they themselves should assume."

In short, Mexico is so corrupt, so oligopolistic, so rotting inside with the privilege of the rich that it has to send its poor and its potential political activists to another country. And on top of that, it tries to blame the United States for its own failures.

When I was in Mexico last fall, after dozens of visits over the years, people on every political and social level confirmed these accusations, complaining to me of Fox's failures. Forty families still own 60 percent of Mexico. There are no voluntary organizations, no civic involvement, no family foundations - and thus, no accountability, allowing corruption to flourish. Mexico gains $28 billion from oil revenue and $20 billion from immigrant remittances. There is virtually no industrialization, no small business, no real chance at individual entrepreneurship. Under Fox, it has created only one-tenth of the 1 million jobs needed.

Ah, but there are new voices of change, of reason, of self-awareness in Mexico, in place of the hoary anti-gringo rants: the beginnings of a transformation of the debate.

The same week of the Fox visit, for instance, The New York Times ran a stunning article headlined "Some in Mexico See Border Wall as Opportunity." It quotes men such as Jorge Santibanez, president of the College of the Northern Border, saying: "For too long, Mexico has boasted about immigrants leaving, calling them national heroes, instead of describing them as actors in a national tragedy; and it has boasted about the growth in remittances as an indicator of success, when it is really an indicator of failure."

Other prominent Mexicans were quoted as saying, for instance, the formerly unthinkable: that a wall would be the "best thing that could happen for Mexico"; the "porous border" allowed "elected officials to avoid creating jobs." And former Foreign Minister Jorge G. Castañeda, who always took a tough line toward the United States, writes in the Mexican newspaper Reforma that Mexico needed "a series of incentives" to keep Mexicans from migrating, including welfare benefits to mothers whose husbands remained in Mexico, scholarships, and the loss of land rights for people who were absent too long from their property.

This is European social democracy, this is American New Deal, this is real development talk, in place of the tiresome historical Mexican attitude that everything is the gringos' fault and they should pay for it. This is a real revolution of the mind! It also may indicate that, while President Fox failed in carrying through such basic modern reforms, he did lay the basis for them.

Two important points here. The fact that the free enterprise candidate for July's presidential election, Felipe Calderon of the National Action Party (PAN), is suddenly and unexpectedly surging ahead on his slogan of "My job will be to make sure you have a job" may show that the Mexican people are fed up. In addition, the fact that only 50,000 of the 400,000 Mexicans in the United States who were available to vote in the July Mexican elections have bothered to register can only indicate a generalized disgust with Mexican corruption and hopelessness, and perhaps even a turn toward American ways.

If this is true - and it certainly seems so - then there may be hopeful currents running below the deceptively static surfaces of Mexico today.

Surely the fact that America has awakened to the insult of its "neighbor" cynically exporting its problems, while doing nada at home, can only help Mexico and jar it to some modern sense. Ironically, the debate and the anger in the U.S. about this mammoth illegal immigration has already helped Mexico to begin to shed its dependency on America - and to turn its energies toward its own real predators, all home-grown.



http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060530/news_mz1e30geyer.html
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