Creativity

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Creativity

"I put down the cup and examine my own mind. It alone can discover the truth. But how? What an abyss of uncertainty, whenever the mind feels overtaken by itself; when it, the seeker, is at the same time the dark region through which it must go seeking and where all its equipment will avail it nothing. Seek? More than that: create. It is face to face with something which does not yet exists, to which it alone can give reality and substance, which it alone can bring into the light of day." "Remembrance of Things Past"

Where can one find more courage and creativity than in the wagon train crossing the Mississippi and driving West to the Pacific coast to create a new life in what is presently a wilderness? Or perhaps in the ships crossing the Atlantic with a small group determined to start a new life on a continent presently free of any such life as intended.

Can you think of anything that would be more creative than starting a new civilization?

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No doubt! Pioneer is an exciting word, in any time or place. And a secret desire that all souls probably have, even if it is just a tiny little fantasy.

Well, except maybe for my dear mum. hee hee

Anyway--I think about such things quite a bit. My main focus always seems to be on the founding fathers of the US. George Washington was (IMO) a truly noble participant--as was Paul Revere and many of their contemporaries. It's rather staggering to ponder the enormity of breaking away from the monarchist's rule and becoming an ex-patriot in order to become a patriot of a new and different sort. And they succeeded!

Then, a century or so later (?) the pioneers going westward on the wagon trails forged their own unique part in history--not the same as the founding fathers--but there is an interdependence there that just makes each one somehow more spectacular in its own accomplishments.

I think we (modern society) have taken such endeavors for granted, perhaps, or maybe its just the inevitable fading of time passing. But it seems easy to forget how we got here in the modern ease of just being here. In that case, then, certainly those brave souls seeking a better life. first across the ocean in the 'new world,' and then later, toward the golden western land beyond Mississippi, accomplished their goal with far-reaching success.

Maybe more 'Wagon Train' on syndicated television, perhaps? Wink

Or maybe 'The Outlaw Josey Wales.' Laughing

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Einstein was creative. Beethoven, Monet, Tolkien and even Hitler were creative.

Starting a new civilization is as creative as ants building a new anthill.

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I guess you've experienced both and hence are giving us your empirical conclusion based on that?

Or is that just your cynical contribution to the discussion?

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Re: Creativity

coberst wrote:

Where can one find more courage and creativity than in the wagon train crossing the Mississippi and driving West to the Pacific coast to create a new life in what is presently a wilderness?

I'd say a good candidate is the very environment that produced the passage you quoted--the hustle and bustle of urbanity, and all the special problems it poses. Seems like it's no less an effective way of shaking one's foundational paradigms as any other way, if Proust is any indication.

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queen annie wrote:

I guess you've experienced both and hence are giving us your empirical conclusion based on that?

Or is that just your cynical contribution to the discussion?

I know a lot about creativity, and I grew up on the very edges of civilization in the Australian outback so yes, I guess I have.

A lot of creativity may be required of a pioneer but nothing like that shown by Einstein. To say so cheapens creativity. (IM-not-so-HO)

What makes you think I'm cynical?

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Re: Creativity

coberst wrote:

Where can one find more courage and creativity than in the wagon train crossing the Mississippi and driving West to the Pacific coast to create a new life in what is presently a wilderness? Or perhaps in the ships crossing the Atlantic with a small group determined to start a new life on a continent presently free of any such life as intended.

Can you think of anything that would be more creative than starting a new civilization?

Not destroying the civilization that is already there while creating your "new" civilization would be a good start.

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Re: Creativity

fishin' wrote:

Not destroying the civilization that is already there while creating your "new" civilization would be a good start.

This thought came straight up to the front when I posted my first post...

But I decided to be optimistic for once, instead of jumping on my genocide soapbox.

But it's true. I said this very thing, basically, sometime within the last 2 weeks or so. Killing one people's way of life in order to make a new one for the pioneers.

Gosh, that's just life, though. Sometimes you kill and sometimes you are killed.

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Eorl wrote:

A lot of creativity may be required of a pioneer but nothing like that shown by Einstein.

You know, I just can't apply the idea of 'creativity' to genius such as Einstein's....

Maybe just semantics to some, but a little verbal precision is never a bad thing. To be creative is to create. Einstein didn't create the theory of relativity, he discovered it, defined it, you could even say he caught it out of ephemeral oblivion and gifted it to humanity.

Mozart created. Shakespeare created. Galileo discovered. Newton discovered.

There are so many types of genius but not all are of the same nature. All priceless, no doubt. Einstein was one of the greatest, IMO, but that doesn't make him a creator in his genius.

Quote:

To say so cheapens creativity.

My dear, nothing I, or anyone, could say, think, or do could ever cheapen the creativity of another.

Quote:

(IM-not-so-HO)

What makes you think I'm cynical?

Maybe I misinterpreted my initial vibe (from you on this particular thread) erroneously--thinking your unabashed lack of humility was cynicism. :wink:

Truth is, I actually prefer ego over outright negativity, any day.

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So I guess that means pioneers are as destructive as they are creative?

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queen annie wrote:

Eorl wrote:
A lot of creativity may be required of a pioneer but nothing like that shown by Einstein.

You know, I just can't apply the idea of 'creativity' to genius such as Einstein's....

Maybe just semantics to some, but a little verbal precision is never a bad thing. To be creative is to create. Einstein didn't create the theory of relativity, he discovered it, defined it, you could even say he caught it out of ephemeral oblivion and gifted it to humanity.

Mozart created. Shakespeare created. Galileo discovered. Newton discovered.

There are so many types of genius but not all are of the same nature. All priceless, no doubt. Einstein was one of the greatest, IMO, but that doesn't make him a creator in his genius.

I'd agree that there are subtle differences and each of us has to make our own determinitaion over what is or isn't "creative" but IMO, your nuances are arbitrary.

Mozart took sounds that existed in the universe and arranged them into music that resonated with people. He didn't create the musical instruments nor the notation for documenting his works.

Shakespeare took exisiting words and arranged them in a form that resonated with people. He didn't create the words, the pen nor paper or even the play.

Einstein took mathmatical symbols and numbers and arranged them in a way that both explained a part of our universe and resonated with people.

Is a painter "creative" or "genius" when they paint a perfect rendition of a still life scene?

IMO, Einstein's theories are part genius and part creative. The genius is in the initial conceptions (his "leap" from the known...) . His creativity came in the form of his ability to translate the thoughts in his head to something that can be explained and demonstrated to others - just as Mozart translated musical notes and Shakespeare translated words.

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I don't know, truly.

You lost me, somehow...

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Oh, duh, Eorl--

I get what you were referring to.

What a dork I can sometimes be.

Right. Pioneers are also destructive.

And queens are sometimes whack-ditzy. Embarrassed

Fishin'~
Yes, you make excellent points and are justified in pointing out my over-extensive opinion of earlier.

I might of got a little ruffled at the thought of someone thinking I had dis'd Einstein in any way. (he's one of my heros and so you see I reacted in lieu of responding)

*blush*

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Fishin asks: "Is a painter "creative" or "genius" when they paint a perfect rendition of a still life scene?"

What do you mean by "a perfect rendition?" A perfect copy?

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Albert Einstein himself said :

"Imagination is more important than knowledge"

but then he also said:

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources" Razz

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Frankly, Eorl, when I am creative (or at least think I am), I do not have any idea of the sources of that creativity. It's very much a mystery.

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I don't understand how the finer points of any physics or maths Einstein encountered work, alas, if the man himself tried to explain it to me I fear for my brains ability not to melt. Regardless, was he not creative with his use of mathematical symbols, techniques and equations? I imagine how he might have come to a head with one particular problem and struggled with it for however long, before being hit by some mathematical inspiration like a bolt of lightning to solve said problem, that even he would struggle to explain to himself...

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Ashers, I agree except that I suspect where you and I see symbols and equations, people like Einstein see the "thing" represented by the symbols...... in the same way that to you and I can see the reality described by 1+1=2.

I was in my twenties when someone finally told me that mathematics is just models of the universe. I wish someone had explained that to me at school, I would have been much more interested.

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Eorl, ALL mathematical, philosophical, artistic, everyday practical thinking deals with metaphors organized (grammatically, logically and aesthetically) as models of reality. We deal with life indirectly in terms of models (definitions, theories, beliefs, etc.) and experience it directly sensuallly.

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Yes that must be true JL.

I suppose it was a demonstration of my intellectual limitations when I couldn't see how integrating equations related to the "real" universe. (It wasn't that I didn't think I'd need it, I just didn't see the point of it)

Although it is tempting to blame my teachers for not having explained the point of it all. Lot's of "how" in my maths class, but not much "why".

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Creativity

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