'Elite Women' : are they killing feminism?

Male Pregnancy Now an Option, Beijing Surgeon Says

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.....the "male mother" will take oral doses of female hormones. Once ready, the patient will then be impregnated by in vitro fertilization, with the embryo implanted into the abdomen cavity just under or into the peritoneum (the surrounding lining). The pregnancy will take the normal nine months with the delivery done by Caesarean section

It has been officially announced that modern men already have a possibility to become pregnant. Leading IVF specialist, Robert Winston, says that his medical technique allows to implant artificially grown human embryos in the abdominal cavity of a man. Pregnant men will have to deliver their children by means of Cesarean section, of course.

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That is disturbing. I hope that one day there is a choice for an external place for fetal development to take place in.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Very interesting Walter. As a feminist myself, I am concerned about one thing. As the more highly educated, more intelligent women opt for career over motherhood, it will be the less educated, less intelligent women who will be in the forefront of producing the next generations. We have been hearing (in other contexts) about the "dumbing down" of society. I am concerned that this trend may escalate.

One might remark that it was the lower classes who traditionally produced greater numbers of children. I think that the divergence will widen, as some of the "cream" of the brighter women, fail to reproduce at all.

I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding this perspective. While there is an abundance of less intelligent people who are reproducing, I think the issue comes down to class, and how will those without the means be able to give the opportunity of a good education to their offspring.

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Ray wrote:

That is disturbing. I hope that one day there is a choice for an external place for fetal development to take place in.

From a longer term historical perspective the women's movement will be seen as a footnote to the underlying drive towards the end of discrete male / female sexuality as we know it today. Sexual morphing will be commonplace, as will artificial crèches for gestation.

In the shorter term sure, men will give birth.

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Ah Sozobe, I think we need more women CEO's, actually. Even considering the firm I worked for went bankrupt due to financial malpracticing of our female CEO, I still feel there should be more female CEO's.
Actually, there is at least one profession where it is, from a statistical point of view, probably preferable to have men instead of women. The most prominent I can think of is a high casualty war. Because the population of a country might come into jeapardy if an overly large part of the fertile female population were to die. A shortage of men is much more easily countered.

Naj.

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Well, as appealing as men being the child bearers might be to us who have already been there done that, I still find it a bit nauseating to contemplate. And the idea of cloning human beings is over the ethical top.

So back to the more mundane discussion on feminism and the ramifications of that for those who have to deal with it on a daily basis. Here is what I think is a rather intelligent commentary on that very thing:

Excerpt

Quote:

The whole thing is HERE

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Foxfyre wrote:

Well, as appealing as men being the child bearers might be to us who have already been there done that, I still find it a bit nauseating to contemplate.

Irrelative to the fact that male pregnancy will happen and change the whole male / female dynamic just like sex change operations and homosexuality are doing right now. Just like child rearing too. It's all changing fast. In fact, the main topic of this thread, the equal opportunity of women and it's implications is in fact is pretty much driving with the rear view mirrors, it's already happened, in the free world, it's well known.

Foxfyre wrote:

And the idea of cloning human beings is over the ethical top.

You clearly have no understanding of what I said in my prior posts at all. Cloning was not part of my premise in any way whatsoever. The conventional sperm & egg fertilization process is all that's required. There is no cloning required, it is sexual reproduction.

Nevertheless, as to your dogmatic and unsubstantiated presumptions of cloning:
- are you aware that (in certain respects) amoebae clone themselves all the time as their method of reproduction? Are amoebae ethically over the top? Do you plan on trying to stop amoebae from reproducing in this immoral way?
- identical twins are actually clones. Are identical twins ethically over the top? Do you plan on trying to stop identical twins?
- a rooted cutting of a rose bush is a clone. Are rooted cuttings of rose bushes ethically over the top? Do you plan on trying to stop rooted cuttings of rose bushes?

Cloning is nothing new, and since I know you are a dogmatic regionalist you must believe cloning is part of god's master plan.

Why?

Not only because it occurs naturally (so god must have created it), but because as a dogmatic regionalist you must believe everything came from god including cloning. Further the bible does not forbid cloning, although the word of god forbids eating shellfish & pork as they are abominations. Preposterous!

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Geez Chumly, I didn't suggest that you said anything about cloning. I said something about cloning. And I also said that I think the idea of male pregnancy is repugnant no matter if it does catch on. Because some people do strange stuff doesn't mean it will catch on , however. And yes, I think cloning of human beings would be wrong and I have thought it through but any in depth discussion of that is a better topic for another thread. And what you know of my dogmatism, regionalist or not, or my opinions on God's master plan is quite minimal and I certainly did not in any way extend hostilities to you nor invite hostilities from anybody; certainly not you.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Geez Chumly, I didn't suggest that you said anything about cloning. I said something about cloning.

Given that you were responding to my post which did not contain any reference to cloning at all and yet you responded thusly

Foxfyre wrote:

And the idea of cloning human beings is over the ethical top.

it's clear you thought I was referring to cloning, it's also clear you wanted to put your ethical stamp of disapproval on it. Why you would want to backpedal on this is curious.

Foxfyre wrote:

And what you know of my dogmatism, regionalist or not, is quite minimal and I certainly did not in any way extend hostilities to you nor invite hostilities from anybody; certainly not you.

As to your dogmatic regionalism you have made that quite plain as per your narrow views right here on cloning being "over the ethical top", as per your views right here that male pregnancy is "bit nauseating to contemplate", and as per numerous other posts of yours on abortion and Christianity.

I am not sure about your views on homosexuality, same sex marriages, transsexuals, and surrogate parenting as I have not checked. Are they in keeping with your dogmatic religious negative moral judgments on abortion, male pregnancy and cloning?

As to your inference of "hostilities" on my part they are unfounded. These are simply the facts, you are indeed a dogmatic religionist and have demonstrated it here and in numerous other posts I have read of yours.

As to the relevance of homosexuality, same sex marriages, expanded families, surrogate parenting, transsexuals, male pregnancy, etc. they are part and parcel of the same driving forces that have provided equality for women i.e. changing social dynamics due to increased materialism via technology and education. As such the implications of women's equally is but one small part.

Lastly, it's my opinion that without the impetus of changing social dynamics due to increased materialism via technology and education, the women's movement would have failed, thus the women's movement is a reaction to, and not the impetus for, the present level of equality.

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Chumly, in all due respect, baloney.

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I'm going to get some lunch, would you like a sandwich?

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Not if it is bologna. That I am dogmatic about.

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Quote:

As to the relevance of homosexuality, same sex marriages, expanded families, surrogate parenting, transsexuals, male pregnancy, etc. they are part and parcel of the same driving forces that have provided equality for women i.e. changing social dynamics due to increased materialism via technology and education. As such the implications of women's equally is but one small part.

Yeah, we know these people are minority groups right? I dont think male pregnancy will take off [wheres the emoticon for someone spewing?].

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RaceDriver205 wrote:

Yeah, we know these people are minority groups right? I don't think male pregnancy will take off [wheres the emoticon for someone spewing?].

Male pregnancy will prolly never become the number one baby maker but I can see it being quite popular with male homosexual couples. C sections are already common enough among woman. It's certainly going to cause interesting religious / social / legal wrangling when the child is born from the male gay couple's sperm and an absent donor female's egg, yet the pregnancy itself is gestated with the stay-at-home male.

When all this neo homosexuality, same sex marriages, expanded families, surrogate parenting, transsexuals, male pregnancy, etc. hits the fan in maybe 50 to 100 years I guarantee you one thing. The religious right (if they are still intact) will have a heyday!

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We'll see. Just because we can is not always a good reason to do something.

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Chum wrote-

Quote:

When all this neo homosexuality, same sex marriages, expanded families, surrogate parenting, transsexuals, male pregnancy, etc. hits the fan in maybe 50 to 100 years I guarantee you one thing. The religious right (if they are still intact) will have a heyday!

It won't take that long Chum.

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Spendius. Posts=13253
Holy sh#t! That takes effort!
13253/(2006-1994)=1104
1104/365=3 Posts a day everyday for 12 years!
Well that astounded me anyway.
Mind you,
Chum. Posts=2701
about 110 days since 2/1/06 means about 24 posts a day.

The religous right have been around since the dawn of time mind, I dont think they'll disappear in 50 or so years. Sad

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spendius wrote:

Chum wrote-

Quote:
When all this neo homosexuality, same sex marriages, expanded families, surrogate parenting, transsexuals, male pregnancy, etc. hits the fan in maybe 50 to 100 years I guarantee you one thing. The religious right (if they are still intact) will have a heyday!

It won't take that long Chum.

I agree, some of the above is already here in a number of ways, I just put a conservative timetable to avoid unneeded post static from the religious right; that I would then have to demonstrate with lots of examples; which the religious right would then use for the purposes of dogmatic moral condemnation.

That whole cliché cycle I find rather...........cliché (and vacuous).

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I have no problem with feminism. I was just pointing out the difficulties involved in choosing career and also motherhood at the same time. There will be those who will succeed if the chosen career fits them such as Acting or stylish marketing a la Martha Stewart, Fashion where an advanced degree is not a pre-requisite. It depends on the field chosen and the person. If it is a difficult field like an international business where travelling and long hours are involved then family will suffer. There have been businesswomen who placed family over career just for that reason. They loved their kids too much. There is no easy answer and one must be aware of all the options and pitfalls involved. I am merely illustrating the pitfalls so that one may consciously weigh they decisions with wisdom and take all precautionary steps. One cannot succeed from mere wistfuly decisions.

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'Elite Women' : are they killing feminism?

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