Shame on you!

Hey, boomer. I don't like the word choice, and it's as simple as that. I have often regretted things that I have done, but never felt ashamed. Don't ask me why, however. Perhaps it's the hangover from childhood days when kids would yell, "shame is your name."

I don't really like the word either and I can't recall if I have ever said it to someone I love.

But I have felt ashamed of things I have done. Most of the things I felt ashamed about were not even big things. I remember a girl who lived in our neighborhood who we made up a nasty little chant about. It really had to have hurt her feelings but I would chant it along with the other kids even though I felt ashamed of myself for doing it.

Fortyish years later I still remember the chant and the girl and the way I played along knowing how it made her feel. I think the fact that I WAS ashamed of myself, even then, is what drilled the lesson so deeply into my brain. I'm dead serious about making cruel comments to this very day.

Oh! And looking at it another way...

In our newspaper they often print statements made by criminals upon their conviction. Many of them say "I'm sorry" but I can't recall one of them saying "I'm ashamed of myself".

I think that's interesting.

I ,as well, boomer. Even when I am insulted, I try to stay calm and reason it out. I got really angry on this forum once, and I don't regret it one bit.

Oops, missed your last message.

It is always good to look at the denotation of a word:

Definitions of shame on the Web:

dishonor: bring shame or dishonor upon; "he dishonored his family by committing a serious crime"
a painful emotion resulting from an awareness of inadequacy or guilt
compel through a sense of shame; "She shamed him into making amends"
cause to be ashamed
a state of dishonor; "one mistake brought shame to all his family"; "suffered the ignominy of being sent to prison"
pity: an unfortunate development; "it's a pity he couldn't do it"
surpass or beat by a wide margin
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Shame is a social condition and a form of social control consisting of an emotional state and a set of behaviors, caused by the consciousness or awareness of having acted inappropriately. Intense shame may lead to depression or suicide.

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From my understanding, each culture has a predominating way of pulling the miscreants amongst them into line.

Some cultures are "shame" cultures. Misdeeds are punished by the loss of approval from one's neighbors, or one's peers. The concept of "losing face" is an indication that a certain culture is a "shame" culture. The punishment is meted out from the outside.

Other cultures are "guilt" cultures. People in these cultures have internalized right from wrong, and suffer from internal pangs of remorse.

In the US, the culture has gone from one of intense shame, (think Puritans, and the public punishments that were given out to those who broke the social rules.) Over the years, the culture has turned into one where guilt is predominant. No one seems to care anymore about what the neighbors will think of this or that behavior. Therefore, the words "shame" and "ashamed" no longer have the power to control behavior.

Ummm hummm. Yes, I can see that, Phoenix.

What I'm not sure I understand is this:

In the chanting scenario that I mentioned above only me, the other kids I was with and the poor girl we chanted at knew that I was in any way involved.

I didn't get in any trouble for it.

(If my parents had known they would have hit the ceiling because making fun of someone was something they absolutely would not tolerate.)

So, when I think back on this event, do I feel guilty or ashamed?

Is there really a difference?

Very interesting.

I sometimes say "I am ashamed of my behavior" and the like. When I was young, it was "I am ashamed of myself". Big difference, even though it is words. The first one is constructive to me, because it is an acknowledgment of somewhere I lack an important skill or whatever. So I can do something about it, and let someone know I am do not endorse my own past actions. The second one was less productive for me, because it was a sense of being inadequate as a person. I imagine the fingers wagging and "Shame on you!" for that one.

I have a good friend who was raised a Jehovah's Witness. He left, and so was excommunicated from the group. He says he often feels ashamed. He uses the word frequently. To me, that makes a lot of sense, considering the culture he is familiar with.

So, I guess shame can be both positive and negative. Still thinking and listening.

boomer, consider this statement again



Shame is a social condition and a form of social control consisting of an emotional state and a set of behaviors, caused by the consciousness or awareness of having acted inappropriately. Intense shame may lead to depression or suicide.

I was ashamed of myself earlier today because I directed littlek and cyphercat toward a link which led to a site with erect penises.

They both went to the site and both were apparently stressed out and slightly traumatized by the event.

I blame myself for causing them discomfort, and for that I am ashamed.

There... I said it.

Shame! Shame! everybody knows your name.

I used to feel very strongly about the word shame, for reasons others have already stated....but then, like flushd said, I realized it is my poor choice of actions, or rather in my case, LACK of action, which brings me shame....In that way, shame is actually a good thing, since it makes me realize to do the right thing.

That didn't come out exactly right.....

For instance, today, I can say to myself....Why didn't I help that person out, or report something I suspected was going on...or stand up for the rights of someone who couldn't said up for themselves?

Then, I'll feel ashamed at myself for not being brave enough to do the right thing.

Now I have to remember that doing the right thing may not win you popularity contests...but you can sleep at night, and not be ashamed.

Not so much trauma, gus, as frustration.

As for shame..... yeah, it's a thing these days. I think when I was in elem school, there was a movement to allow kids to develop their own emotions. My mother never taught us to say we were sorry, because we didn't know, she read, what we meant by it. She thought we'd learn it on our own. Today I wonder what the hell she was thinking! If your mother doesn't teach guilt, or shame, who will? To this day I have a hard time apologizing.

Prolly need to sort out shame from guilt:

"Shame is a social condition and a form of social control consisting of an emotional state and a set of behaviors, caused by the consciousness or awareness of having acted inappropriately. Intense shame may lead to depression or suicide"


Guilt

" guilt [gɪlt]

n. state of having committed a crime or offense; culpability; feeling of having done a wrong "


That one is a poor definition.....guilt, I think, is an awareness that one has caused harm, an empathic response followed by a feeling of distress that one has caused pain.


Shame is an awareness of others seeing you as having done wrong....it may or may not include an element of guilt.


I think you are actually speaking of guilt here.


I was at a training course the other day, and the two were strongly distinguished. Shame was seen as characteristically shutting down our ability to be empathic or reflective....as one is so wrapped up in self referential distress, and hence one is unable to learn much from the experience, except to feel bad, and perhaps not do it again (which is problematic for traumatised kids, for example, as the feelings are likely to trigger emotional regulation behaviour from them, which will likely be as bad, or worse, or the very same behaviour as that for which they were shamed!)


Guilt was seen as an opening up of reflectivity and empathy and hence of meaningful learning, if used with love and care.


The therapist concerned was, interestingly, asked to teach in Japan, and raised the objection that he did not think his research and methods would be well accepted there, because of the importance of shame to that culture. The people inviting him disagreed, and arrangements went ahead ...only to be cancelled at the last because, when the inviters ran it past others, they felt strongly that he should not come.

This was extremely traumatic for the inviters, as they felt deep shame in having to cancel.




So....I think correction along the lines of assisting a kid to see the effect on others' feelings of what they did, and assistance to understand and repair any damage tends towards the good end, while shaming tends towards the bad end.

Okay.... okay.... I'm getting that "shame" is a bad deal.

But look at the definition for ashamed:



To me, it sounds like ashamed comes from the inside, like guilt, while shame comes from the outside.

It is interesting that flushd brings up Jehovah's Witness'. There were a couple of huge cases here not long ago where JW's were being "shunned" by their church. In both cases the person killed their entire family and, in one, himself as well.

I also think about in the Middle East where they have "honor killings" of people who have shamed their families.

So, yeah, I get where shame is bad.

But I'm still struggling with ashamed.

Interesting, dlowan. What kind of signals would be necessary to ensure a person who did something wrong feels guilt rather than shame?

Now that's a great question!

I keep reading this paragraph over and over and over.

I'm hoping to have it gelled by morning.

I keep flashing back to Mo's maternal bio-family discovering he likes to wear his underpants backwards and them making a big deal of it and them asking me what I planned to do about it before he started school....

(I'm still thinking of searching out those slotless boy's German underpants that Walter Hintler told me about. Then he can be all fancy in his German underpants instead of nutso in his backwards underpants.)