Heaven's just a SIN away

Yes, probably, but what is the point?

The point is to awaken and smell the coffee. Sleeping away your life is a lousey way to spend your time.

coberst- I think that you wandered off from your very important point. Yes, I think that our culture has chosen to hide from reality, and the beginnings of it could be discerned from the 1960's onwards.

At that time, one saw the rise of the "hippies" the "flower children" and sects such as the hare knishnas and the moonies. What these very different movements have in common? They chose to see the world through mysticism and irrationality, instead of reason and thoughtful introspection. Many others believed that "enlightment" could be obtained in a drug induced haze. The preeminence of reason, the force that fostered the Renaissance, was giving way to the rule of irrationality, and a throwback to an earlier, less rational time.

In the case of the cults, a charismatic leader set the tone for his flock. One did not have to think...............one merely adhered to the rules of the sect. Although the painted Volkswagen buses are nearly extinct, the
same forces are beeing seen in our society today.

Yes, there is SIN.............self induced narcotic, and it is practiced by just those people who quiver at the idea of sin. It is the sin of abrogating one's own mind to the irrational, the mystical, and the failure to take the ultimate responsibility for one's own actions.

Fundamental religions are gaining new, and more strident converts. Religion, which for many was simply a part of the fabric of a person's existence, has become first and foremost in the lives of many people.

I become saddened when I observe how religion has torn apart the people in the US, as well as around the world. Individualism is succumbing to mindless tribalism. Rational thought, and the seeking of truth, is being replaced by the parroting of ancient texts.

Phoenix

"coberst- I think that you wandered off from your very important point. Yes, I think that our culture has chosen to hide from reality, and the beginnings of it could be discerned from the 1960's onwards."

Do you mean that I wondered off topic by writing about attitude change? If so perhaps I should explain that I wanted everyone to recognize that the attitude of hiding from reality can be changed by creating the will to change and the habits that can gradually make change possible. SIN is a result of an attitude and can be changed.

Perhaps I did not read your meaning correctly.

How does one go about helping people to become conscious of such matters and how can one help change if not by saying such things? I welcome your help and your suggestions. I think that those of us who recognize the problem must try to help others to recognize the problems.

very, VERY, dangerous waters you're wading in.

Would you care to elaborate? Am I going to be on someone's hit list?

coberst- Oh, do believe that it is important to discuss these things. I think that the younger folk have been born into a culture of irrationality and mysticism.

Those of us who take responsibility for ourselves, who don't look for the approval of some pastor, or leader, or mythical figure, can keep illustrating that one can live a good, satisfying life by assuming personal responsibility. The way to illustrate it is by example, and by not sitting silent when he hears the spouting of irrationality.

Phoenix, what you say is sadly too true, namely the irrationality and fantastical nature of New Age America. But, if you'll permit a quibble, the term, mysticism, has an historical reference to points of view that have nothing to do with New Age irrationalism. Indeed, Mysticism (e.g. the more mature eastern religions and philosophies) IS non-rational (indeed extra-cognitive), but that is decidedly NOT the same as irrationality, which is merely bad cognition/rationalism.

How does it logically follow that because someone doesn't believe or behave the way certain others do, that they are not taking personal responsibility for themselves?

I've had it illustrated recently (by moving to and living in another country) that there are so many alternative ways to live a life that still focus on and embrace personal responsibility. There are so many variations on cultural behaviors and beliefs that lead to the same responsible behavior- namely the belief in the importance of doing unto others as you'd have them do unto you - which is the one rule (if we could all embrace and follow it) that would serve to alleviate so much bullshit in this world.

And in fact, the percentage of people who belong to churches and define themselves in terms of a specific religion is falling, not rising. The right wing government that is in power in the United States is not indicative of what is happening in the world as a whole, and I think if you were really to examine the incidence of regular church attendance, even in the US, you would find that it has fallen drastically since the 60's.

I work with and know people who are into "mysticism" as you call it, and if anything they are bucking the trends of materialism and taking personal responsibility in such a way that they are conserving instead of consuming, and being more responsible citizens of the earth than the huge majority of people in the US (even those who are non-religious and liberal in their social and moral values and beliefs) could even begin to understand or comprehend. It is just so wrong, so, so wrong to paint everyone with the same broad brush, or talk about people in generalizations- because in the end, it is never accurate.

And Coberst - my take on sin is that a little every once in a while reminds us we're human - and might even make us feel good enough to make us happy enough that we don't make those around us feel miserable. "Judge not yest ye be judged "- that's my philosophy on sin - you don't judge me ( and that includes my personal credo and set of beliefs, which I am entitled to hold without being constantly told I'm wrong) and I won't judge you. Sorry if this pisses anyone off, but I just can't sit silent when I hear irrationality being spouted.

Good post, Aidan.
Traditionally "sin" is violation of sacred law and "crime" is violation of secular law.
As an atheist I still have use for the concept of sin. To me it is the violation of one's own ethical values; such a violation may not be a crime in that it is not defined as such by any legal statute, so perhaps "sin" is still appropriate. What is more "sacred", and, as such, a determinant of "guilt" than our own personal ethical values?

JL- I am certainly in accord with your statement. I believe that people who think, know when they have behaved inappropriately, even if no one ever knows but themselves.

Well, I wouldn't want to throw out judgment altogether. To refrain from judgment (what unfortunately sometimes goes under the name "relativism") seems morally irresponsible too, just in the other direction. But I gather your point is that we don't always have the right to put these judgments into action, if that involves disrupting someone else's life against his or her will.




Well said.

Good post.

I concur with Phoenix's take on it.

Nothing wrong with using the concept...and the way you suggest is appropriate.

Pretty good thinking for an atheist!