Shirk?

As far as I know, there are three scriptures which have been said to be the direct word of God: the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran. However, all of us agree that the Torah and the Gospel have been changed time and time again. No two Bibles are alike.

What about the Quran? The Quran states that it is the last scripture to be sent down from God, and the God has take it upon himself to preserve it. It is true that the Quran has remained completely unchanged for over 1400 years, since the time of it's revelation. Not a single word, nor a single letter has been changed.

Cristians believe in the Torah, they believe that it was sent down by God, but they follow the Gospel because it is the most "revised" message so far. Is it not possible that yet another book would come after the Gospel? I don't that is is stated anywhere in the Gospel that no more books will proceed it.

Jesus was an Israelite/Jew right? At that time, his people were following the teachings of the Torah, but the Torah's message has been altered, and the jewish rabbis of the time were taking advantage of people using religion. Jesus comes along with his miracles and a new book. Many people start to follow Jesus' teachings. It's not like they converted or anything. They simply knew that God has sent them another prophet (or as Christians believe, his Son) down with a new book, which corrected the mistakes in the altered Torah.

Now let's take a look the the last scripture, the Quran. There is no "proof" that it is the word of God, and there is no "proof" either for the other two scriptures. But, let's take a look at the facts shall we?

First of all, the prophet Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael became the "father" of the Arabs, and Isaac became the "father" of the Israelites/Jews. Jesus (peace be upon him) is therefore and decendant of Isaac, and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a decendant of Ishmael. The Arabs never had a book sent down to them like the Jews, but they still believed in God and followed the teachings of Ishmael. However, they strayed far from the right path over time. They began to engage in idol worshipping, alchohol consumption, gambling, and just about everything that went against the teachings of Ishmael. They treated their women next to animals, and even buried their daughters alive since they preferred boys. There were some Arabs, at the time as well who were Christian, meaning they believed that Jesus was the son of God (from the Islamic point of view they were following the altered Gospel).

Muhammad was born into this disgusting Arab society. Growing up, he was highly respected because he was very honest and trustworthy, and was very good at solving social disputes.

He knew there was something terribly wrong with his society's culture and religion. The Arabs would have all sorts of festivals which involved idol worshipping and alcohol consumption, but Muhammad steered clear of these habits. He often went aone to a cave in Mount Hira, to worship God and ponder about the point of his existence.

Here is his story: One day while he was up in the cave, an angel (Gabriel) came to him. Muhammad was completely terrified. No, angels do not look like beautiful human beings with wings and halos. All we know is this: They have wings, how many we're not sure, but Gabriel specifically has 300 pairs of wings. Angels are huge, and they are terrifying in their true form, at least in a human's point of view.

Anyway, Gabiriel gives Muhammad a command: "Recite,", he says. Muhammad, being illiterate answers: "I am not a reciter." The angel embraces Muhammad with a rip-cracking hug and repeats the command: "Recite," he says. Again Muhammad answers, "I am not a reciter". Gabriel repeats the embrace, asking Muhammad to repeat after him and said: "Recite in the name of your Lord who created! He created man from that which clings. Recite; and thy Lord is most Bountiful, He who has taught by the pen, taught man what he knew not."

Muhammad, still terrified, repeats what the angel said and runs out of the cave. But the Gabriel follows him out of the cave. Muhamad can't even bear to look at the angel, so one can imagine how frightening Gabriel was. Muhammad turns his head to look away, but everywhere he looked, there was Gabriel. Can you even imagine something like that? When Gabriel spreads his wings, he is so Gigantic his form fills the entire sky. Then Gabriel tells Muhammad that he is the prophet of God, and that he is to carry out the God's message to mankind: The Quran.

Okay, so Muhammad (phuh) runs home to his wife Khadija and asks her to cover him (he is still scared of course). She comforts him and he tells her what happened. She calls over a cousin of hers who was Christian. Her cousin hears Muhammad out and confirms that he is indeed a prophet.

The Angel Gabriel visited the Muhammad many times over a period of twenty-three years. Gabriel taught Muhammad the verses, and Muhammad, being illiterate was to memmorize them. He then repeated the verses he was taught to his companions and scribes to record on paper.

But wait a second! What if Muhammad wasn't telling the truth? What if the Quran was not the word of God?

Let's examine this question. The Quran is in Arabic, so only someone who knew Arabic well could have possibly written it. Therefore, there are only 3 possibilities of who could have possibly written it: The Arabs in general, Muhammad, or God.

When looking at the first possibility, one can already have many doubts that it was the Arabs who wrote the Quran. The Quran went against just about every aspect of their lifesyle! The Quran forbids Idol worshipping, but the Arabs loved their Idol gods and were constantly worshipping them and offering sacrifices. The Quran forbid alcohol consumption, but they Arabs freely consumed alcohol. The Quran fobid the maltreatment of women. It said to be kind to women, to treat them as human beings, and it gave women political, economical, and social rights as well. But the Arabs, as I have already said, treated women next to animals. Why would the Arabs write something that goes completely against their socity's ideals? Wouldn't they rather write something that encouraged their lifestyle?

Okay, so that rules out the possibility of the Arabs writing it, so lets look at the second possibility shall we? Could Muhammad have written the Quran?

First I would like to mention this: The Arabic language had reached its peak when it comes to grammar, vocabulary, and poetic expression in the 6th century, during Muhammad's lifetime. Poetry was something highly valued and there were many highly respected poets at the time.

When other poets read the Quran, they were completely baffled by its style and poetic qualities. It was something completely out of this world. But some people just assumed that Muhammad was a poet, and that he was very good with words. But Muhammad was illiterate! It doesn't mean he was stupid, but he would not have they ability to express himself the way the Quran was expressed.

But even if Muhammad was able to express himself so beautifully consider this: The Quran was revealed bit by bit over a period of 23 years, and never did a single aspect of its style change! How could any human keep the exact style of speech for 23 years?

Furthermore, Muslims follow the sayings of the prophet (the hadith) in addition to the Quran. Muhammad expressed his teachings in his own words, which had a completely different style than the Quran. How could a human maintain two completely different styles of speech for 23 years?

But that gives us yet another small possibility: Maybe another individual Arab wrote the Quran, and that person also didn't agree with the pagan Arab culture.

However, the Quran has no author. Anyone who writes a book would put their name on it, but their is no name on the Quran. Furthermore, Muhammad was the only person to ever teach the Quran. He always knew the verses before anyone else.

The Quran also contained many of the same stories found in the Bible and Torah, but Muhammad had never heard of these stories himself! How could he have known? Cristians and Jews from other lands would come to Makkah and ask Muhammad to answer questions that none of the Arabs would have known. But the answer always came, and in the form of Quranic verses.

I'd say that there's enough evidence here that show the Quran is indeed the word of God. What do you make of it?

"Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradiction and error." [Qur'an, An-Nisa 4:82]

#1 I'm not talking down to you....I'm being direct.

Ask anyone here, this is how I talk, take it or leave it.
I don't use big words, I don't get warm and fuzzy. I tell it like it is.

So, to continue in my direct way.....

So, you've got it all planned out how you'd like God to communicate with you in a direct way, the way you'd "hope" God would communicate to you... Well, what if that's not what God wants?

I've asked you several times now, and you don't answer my question. Is it because you don't like the question? Probably.

Again...Instead of trying to convince God to communicate the way the big "YOU" would like to hear him.....Why are you not opening your ears and listening to what/how HE wants to talk to you.

What if, perplexed,....I am God....you are posting back and forth with God....and you're telling me I'm talking down to you.

Perhaps God is trying to get you to learn to see the subtle things perplexed.

Please go back and read my questions, and do me the courtesy of answering them.....I can't have a conversation with you if it's one way.

All that leads to is frustration on both sides.

Stop hoping for the way you want God to treat you, and start seeking him in the way he wants it.

Who said I'm not listening? Just because I haven't seen the message yet doesn't mean I'm not looking for it, or that I saw it and rejected it! I can't help that I haven't seen it, it's not like God used a finger of fire to write commands on stone tablets and I decided to shield my eyes and walk past, I just haven't seen it yet!

You act like I'm failing because I still have questions, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE QUESTIONS!

Perplexed,

I really think you may be misunderstanding Chai Tea somewhat.

I think Chai Tea is just trying to get you to look at the possibility that because God has not given YOU the type of sign that YOU want that it does not mean that GOD is not trying or is not answering you. I think Chai Tea is trying to tell you that while you are looking for answers to your questions, YOU need to keep an open mind and not EXPECT to be answered the way that YOU think YOU should be answered. Sometimes the answers are so much simpler than what we expect them to be.

Chai Tea, if I am off the mark here, just tell me, "Momma, shut the he!! up. "

If God speaks in a way I can't understand it's not my fault that I can't understand it. Not only that, but knowing everything as God does, he KNOWS what messages I will and will not understand. I'm not asking for some specific form of address, like I'm ignoring the message because it wasn't written in a block form letter with a self addressed stamped envelope or something stupid like that. I simply have not seen it yet, saying that I should be looking for something simpler, or for messages that God sends in God's way, DOES NOT HELP.

Actually I'd really appreciate it if chai got off my damn back.

Perplexed,

I can understand that you are a bit upset or tense or whatever word best describes how you feel, but from my experience, Chai Tea, even though we don't see eye to eye or maybe don't even really like each other, has NEVER been anything but 100% honest. At times the words may seem harsh, but I have learned that the meaning behind them is what really matters. Chai Tea is a person that you can take what is said to the bank.

As far as you not understanding about God talking to you, let's see if this helps.

There is a man trapped on the roof of his house in the middle of a flood. He is praying and calling out to God to save him because he does not want to die. Well, shortly after that prayer, a rowboat comes by with someone in it asking if they can help him. He says, "No, I have prayed to God and He will save me." The man calls out to God a second time asking God to save Him. Soon, a motorboat comes by and people are waving at him and saying "You're saved! Come with us!" The man says, "No, thank you. I have asked God to save me and He will." The third time a helicopter comes by the the man waves it off saying, " No! God will save me!" Night falls and the man becomes frightened and starts screaming to God, "I have been praying all day for you to save me and here I am still on the roof of my house in the middle of the flood!" A loud voice comes from heaven saying, "Hey! What do you want? I sent you a rowboat, a motorboat and a helicopter!"

Sometimes in our seeking God, we don't realize that it might not be in the form of a miracle or God's voice proving He's there. :wink:

I understand what you're trying to say, both of you, I GET IT OKAY? I GET IT!!! But it's not always that obvious and simple! Has anyone considered that God might not be trying ot talk to me, or might not have said anything YET? There's a lot more possibilities than the one narrow one you've been presenting.

This thread has become nothing more than a thorn in my side and a source for headaches.

That's quite well presented, Raul-7. Thanks for the effort.

Okay, it's ok! Then let's take it from that standpoint, Perplexed. You're right. It's not always that obvious and simple and I'm sorry if I made it seem that it might be.

Ok, so to your way of thinking, is there a reason that you think God might not be trying to talk to you or maybe just haven't said anything yet? I mean anything specific.

And don't let it become a headache or a thorn in your side. You are frustrated and that's understandable but we're all here. We're willing to talk and do what we can to help.

So, take a deep breath, relax, and let's just chat? :wink:

As a rebuttal to the story momma told, I'll tell one of my own, to illustrate another angle to the problem.

A man is frustrated by his lot in life (whatever it is) and goes out into the wilderness to be alone, and when he is there he cries out to God, screams into the breeze "WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME GOD, OH PLEASE JUST SEND ME A SIGN!" After he yells that, the breeze picks up slightly.... the man stops for a moment, and thinks, then yells "COULD YOU BE A BIT MORE SPECIFIC GOD?!?! WAS THAT THE SIGN OR NOT??!?"

What about "The LORD acts in mysterious ways"? He's got his plan and nothing anyone says or desires will change that, we've just got to go with his flow and see what happens, there is no explanation! It's just God!

Perplexed,

I loved your story! That was cool. Well, it gives us a common place to start, doesn't it?

There's no explanation, it's just God? Hmmm. Not sure if I agree with that. I think there is always an explanation. I do think sometimes we decide what we want the explanation to be.

So, if it's not too personal a thing to ask, are you asking God if He is there just in general or is there a specific question you are wanting an answer to?

Whhhhhoooooo Weeeeeee!

Stand down perplexed....stand down!

OK - let's just let the water that's flowed under the bridge head down the creek....what do ya say?

Let's just start back at square one...are you good with that?

OK - now that that's settled....

I was doing some thinking in the car, even before I logged in here a few minutes ago. What I realized was that you are new here, and are not a mind reader.

If you'll take a moment to look at the # of posts below someones name, you'll see that some of us have been around for some time.

And like people who have been around together, talking back and forth, laughing, arguing, pondering, sharing meat loaf receipes, we know something about each others personalities.

I apologize if I came on too strong for you...I realize you can't have gotten to know me or others very well yet, so let's start this off on the right foot.

I'm not going to go back at this point and reread everything that's been said, in order to get exact words perfect and all that...please let me just give how my impression of all this is....

My first impression of you, when you said you were studying religion and had tried several different ones, intrigued me, and obviously others. It didn't seem that you were getting everything you wanted from any one religion, and so was calling yourself a plurilist, which I'm still not really sure what that is....I'm interested in what that entails.

I asked/suggested if you had ever thought about NOT belonging to a religion (and that doesn't have to be forever) to see if you have a better time communing with God with no other guidance than what enters you personally, and the parts of all these religions that were true to you heart.

I was of course curious as to your age, you may have started at 16 and been searching for years and was now 84. It comes about that you are 22.

That, in a friendly way is why I'm calling you grasshopper.

Anyway...back and forth....back and forth...here we are now.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you're asking anymore. You have mentioned that you're having a problem with guilt and said something to the effect at one point that now you know my age you'll all think I'm unstable, and so on. I also think without looking back, that you're under the impression I think you stupid.

No, I don't think you stupid at all....I think maybe you're a little manipulative, but that's another story, for another time.

I know MA's joke about the woman on the roof, and that's pretty much how I view God. God acts through people, like me, like MA, like you. I also know the one that you told...and that's where you are right now....

I know another joke too....It's about Job and all his trials and so forth....we all know that story, so to cut to the end.... Job throws himself down on his knees, lifting his hands up to God, and cries out...WHY LORD? WHY ARE YOU DOING ALL THIS TO ME?.....

there is a silence..............................then, God voice speaks out.................................and he says...............................













BECAUSE THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT YOU JOB THAT JUST PISSES ME OFF.



OK, to ME, the point of that joke, and yours, is...how the hell do we know why God does what he does....we can strive to understand......but for instance, if you can misunderstand my comments and think I'm on your back and calling you foolish.....................think how much easier it is to misinterpret what God is saying to us.

Perplexed, you are not unique and your quest...many people seek, and wonder if they are seeking in the right direction. You seem desparate, and give the impression that you think we have the answer, and know something you don't.

One thing I can believe Perplexed, and I believe it with all my heart, is that there is not one way only to come closer to God.

That is why, again, I'm asking you this question.....Have you ever considered NOT belonging to a religion, for let's say a couple of years, and seeing where that takes you?

If you have tried so many religions, in such a short period of time, I feel it is a totally valid question and possibility to see what not following a congregation results in.

You know, totally off the subject perplexed, take a look around A2K, there are lots of other stuff going on here that may interest you.

And if you think I'M rough, you should thank your lucky stars some other people haven't come around here

Wouldn't you agree Momma?

Well, thank you for standing up for me.....I am going to rip on Slappy for awhile and his "How to pick up chicks" thread Oh lord, don't get me started.

Come back perplexed, come back.

Chai Tea,

Once again, you totally blow me away. It's true we have had our run-ins, but I respect you so much. Your honesty and straightforwardness are two things I can only hope someday to get anywhere close to being like yours!

Perplexed is having a little bit of those others on another thread right now, so I think that might help him understand you are way more gentle than he thinks. So, oh yes, I agree!!!!!!!!!!

I'm enjoying this conversation immensely and am so glad you don't seem offended I jumped in.

well just don't start hugging and slobbering all over me now......

Yuck! No way babe! No way!

Did you not read the following verse?

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way." [Glorious Qur'an 2:186]

Pray to Allah and he will answer your prayer.

Say: "Praise be to God. He will show you His Signs and you will recognize them. Your Lord is not heedless of anything you do." (Surat an-Naml: 93)

And remember what may appear right to you, may not be right to God-

And what of him the evil of whose actions appears fine to him so that he sees them as good? God misguides whoever He wills and guides whoever He wills. (Surah Fatir: 8)

Thank you for you concern and honesty Chai.

You're probably right that some time reflecting to myself, and not being dragged away in someone else's ideology is a good idea, I admit that, but I have two restraints on my freedom:

1. The aforementioned guilt complexes, concening being on the wrong path, committing ideological sins (sinning by believing the wrong thing) especially shirk (remember shirk? It's a thread called shirk:P).

2. There's a mosque-full of people, many of whom are my friends and some of whom are my proffesors in school, who think I share their beliefs, and who happen to be from a religion which is VERY strict about forbidding religious experimentation. Let's call these 'social concerns'.


As for "what I'm asking".... I'm not sure myself anymore....

Is this thread dead now?

I've been kind of watching since the beginning. I identify with a lot of what you're saying here -- as I mentioned early on, I've had a sort of parallel development except that I never adopted a religion, just studied it. But I was very interested in Buddhism for a while, then very interested in Islam, and all of it at similar ages. I'm a huge fan of Joseph Campbell, who you mentioned recently. (Thought of recommending him but figured you already knew about him...)

Where I ended up -- which may or may not be useful to you -- is with the realization that what feels most comfortable to me is to simply be, in the zen sense, sort of... live a good life, be a good person, and stop worrying about anything else. My conclusion is that living in such a way would please any god I would actually respect. That if a religion holds that simply being a good person is not enough, it is not a religion I want to be a part of.