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Who Are the Moderate Muslims?

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 07:19 pm
Perplexed wrote:
"All terrorists are Muslims"?!?!?! Every heard of the IRA? Timothy McVeigh? the Unabomber? All CHRISTIANS.

Your entire article is full of.... factual problems, please do SOME research at least before you make these kinds of claims.


Perplexed misquoted, or misinterpreted.

This is directly from the article:

"It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims...
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Perplexed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 07:22 pm
That has already been pointed out, much more rudely than you did I might point out.

To Fresco: THIS is how you point these things out, NOT with insults!
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 07:23 pm
Sorry. I hadn't read through before I commented.

Looking forward to getting to know you, Perplexed.
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Perplexed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2006 07:39 pm
That's alright.

I look forward to us enjoying each other's company.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 01:02 am
Perplexed,

I reject your use of the word "insult".

You should consider whether poor language and speed of taking offense is indicative of a muslim attitude to non-convergence to the prevailing host culture. If that is the case, then this supports Harris's general case.

If however you wish to dwell on the word "insult" I would be pleased to engage you on another of Harris's citations "Religion is an insult to the dignity of man", which makes a lot of sense to me.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 05:21 am
sozobe wrote:
I'm not a Muslim, but I dislike the wholesale bashing of Muslims that's been going on all over the place, and I don't "embrace this article", either.

Yes, there are moderate Muslims, lots of them. If we mean by "moderate" non-violent, rational, tolerant, that kind of thing.


Mohammed was violent. No rational man believes he is called to dictate the final pure and unalterable word of God. He liked cats apparantly but thats as far as his tolerance went as far as I can see. Sorry Soz I just dont think the words rational or tolerant apply in the world of Islam.

You probably see me as one of the muslim bashers. Actually I'm not. I dont want to bash anybody, I simply want to undermine outdated and primitive ideas and supplant them with newer and better ones. If that sounds arrogant or elitist, so be it.
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muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 01:38 pm
Steve,

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Mohammed was violent.

No proof.
From Adam (Peace be upon him) till now and even in the future, you will not find better than Prophet Muhammad (May the Peace and Blessings of almighty God be upon him).



Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
No rational man believes he is called to dictate the final pure and unalterable word of God.

The word "rational" means "consistent with or based on or using reason". Our Creator Allah calls for people to use their reason and to be rational in several verses of the Holy Qur'an.

Secondly, Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) never dictated Islam on anyone. But people were, are and will be following his footsteps, because he called for nothing except the Truth.

Thirdly: yes, the Holy Qur'an is the final pure and unalterable word of God. Would you mind showing me a single error or contradiction in the Glorious Qur'an?



Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I simply want to undermine outdated and primitive ideas and supplant them with newer and better ones.

And that's the problem! What you see as outdated and primitive ideas are considered by millions as the most perfect and modernizing concepts. You can't nominate yourself a judge and declare that this idea is true and that is false, because you (and me, and every human) have limited knowledge. God, who knows everything, is the only Judge.

Secondly, do you think you "can supplant them with newer and better ones"? Empires, countries, organizations, coalitions... could not, leave aside an individual. Take for example, Steve, what is happening nowadays: there are prisons all over the world where Muslim brothers are tortured because of their faith. Did this severe torture succeed in undermining what you call "outdated and primitive ideas"? Pray give me the name of a single brother in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Baghram, Belmarsh... who changed or even modified his concepts.
And, has the mass media, which is criticizing Islam day and night, been successful? Or on the contrary, Islam is firmly and constantly growing in every corner of the globe?

Steve, try to be rational, do not blindly follow what the mass media tells you. You are an intelligent man, study Islam for yourself and use the reason God gave you (since you believe in God as you told me in another thread). May Allah assist you!


And Allah knows best.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 04:03 pm
Mohammed was illiterate--so he must have been dictating to someone, unless it was all made up from whole cloth, which is just as likely.

Mohammed certainly was violent, and ignoring the petty warfare which took place between Mecca and Medina won't change the facts, whether or not you wish to acknowledge them. Additionally, Mohammed matrimonially raped a nine year old girl. The man was pure and utter scum . . . a bottom-feeder who got lucky . . .
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freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 04:45 pm
The desire to be ignorant and out of touch with reality characterizes the majority of Americans and anyone who has traveled will know that most people in this world regard the US (perhaps too much) as a nation of self-righteous fools. This leads to many Americans wearing Canadian flags when they travel.

muslim1, I want to apologize on their behalf.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 05:01 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
The problem it seems to me is that Islam starts from the basis that the Koran is the perfect and final word of God. That doesnt leave much leeway for alternative views.

The same is true of Christianity - at least up till three, four decades ago and in most parts of the world.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I hear the expression moderate muslims a lot. Islam is not a moderate or tolerant religion. You either are Muslim or you are not. Of course not all muslims are violent but all muslims have irrational and extreme ideas in their heads. Were there any moderate Nazis? Or Trotskyites?

Are there moderate Christians? People who believe the Bible is the word of god but are moderate in their political points of view and behaviour?

That seems a more obvious/logical point of comparison, considering the above.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 05:13 pm
F4F, you're a hoot, you're apologizing to Muslim1 for the remarks made to him by a Brit, because you care to characterize all Americans as ignorant, self-righteous fools. You can't beat this place for free entertainment . . .
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 05:26 pm
Perplexed wrote:
according to you, the protests in afghanistan were the biggest ever

Perplexed wrote:
also, your article shows that you have no understandin of islam whatsoever.

Perplexed wrote:
Your entire article is full of.... factual problems, please do SOME research at least before you make these kinds of claims.

(my emphasis)

Perplexed, you make the same basic mistake here three times in a row.

Bumble Bee Boogie posted an article. We all post articles. There can be many different reasons to do so: because it's got some interesting fact, because it proposes a POV that was lacking, because you think the author's point is thought-provoking -- there's all such motives alongside the "hey, he's saying exactly what I'm thinking" one.

There is no automatic equation between someone posting an article and it being exactly his/her views, whatsoever.

In this case, BBB even pointed out specifically that she did not fully agree with the author:

Quote:
Sam Harris is only partly right.

And she added one point already she disagreed with him on:

Quote:
History is replete with terrorists of all political ideologies and religions of both the right and of the left.

so note that she specifically expressed disagreement with a statement of Harris's that you then bashed her about anyway as if it were hers ("before you make these kinds of claims").

To just quickly run down your responses:

Perplexed wrote:
according to you, the protests in afghanistan were the biggest ever

Not according to her; according to the article she posted, to its author. You will find out that BBB posts a lot of articles here, enormous amounts even, all in full (not to all of our liking..).

Perplexed wrote:
also, your article shows that you have no understandin of islam whatsoever.

This is not logical. What the article she posted says can not prove that she doesnt understand. If you are right, then your point shows that the author of the article lacks understanding of Islam. Thats not BBB.

Perplexed wrote:
Your entire article is full of.... factual problems, please do SOME research at least before you make these kinds of claims.

She doesnt make any claims. The author makes claims. She could have had any reason to bring it - most of the time she brings liberal-US kind of stuff, but sometimes she goes out on various degrees of a limp (uhm - that didnt come out right - but you know what i mean).

She might have done lots of research, and this could be one out of twenty articles she posted on roughly this area of discussion (with BBB, noone's counting ;-)).

I'm guessing she agreed with some stuff, perhaps a lot of stuff, but not all, or by far not all. Thats pretty much how it is with most copy/pastes - how often do you find someone you completely agree with? Doesnt mean you might not consider something interesting anyway.

Anyway, long post but basically just a heads-up.
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Perplexed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 10:36 pm
okay, well, thanks for quoting my mistakes twice and repeating yourself over and over again, I couldn't have understood from only one example.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 10:49 pm
Perplexed wrote:
okay, well, thanks for quoting my mistakes twice and repeating yourself over and over again, I couldn't have understood from only one example.


SENT FROM GOD ABOVE!!!

Thank you, God!!!

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 10:56 pm
...or Allah. I'm flexible.
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Perplexed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 10:58 pm
Lash wrote:
Perplexed wrote:
okay, well, thanks for quoting my mistakes twice and repeating yourself over and over again, I couldn't have understood from only one example.


SENT FROM GOD ABOVE!!!

Thank you, God!!!

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
um, huh?
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 11:01 pm
A friend needed an good description of anal, and you just pointed it out perfectly with this:

"okay, well, thanks for quoting my mistakes twice and repeating yourself over and over again, I couldn't have understood from only one example."


I sincerely thank you.
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Perplexed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 11:41 pm
Lash wrote:
A friend needed an good description of anal, and you just pointed it out perfectly with this:

"okay, well, thanks for quoting my mistakes twice and repeating yourself over and over again, I couldn't have understood from only one example."


I sincerely thank you.
Well I'm glad you're so pleased at my humiliation.
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Perplexed
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Feb, 2006 11:48 pm
fresco wrote:
Perplexed,

I reject your use of the word "insult".

You should consider whether poor language and speed of taking offense is indicative of a muslim attitude to non-convergence to the prevailing host culture. If that is the case, then this supports Harris's general case.

If however you wish to dwell on the word "insult" I would be pleased to engage you on another of Harris's citations "Religion is an insult to the dignity of man", which makes a lot of sense to me.
I'm a white American, I AM THE HOST CULTURE!

Muslim does NOT equal Arab!
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Mar, 2006 12:09 am
(From your own thread)

mesquite wrote:
Perplexed wrote:
I can't speak for every muslim, but, while I will try to use the term non-muslim, if I do slip and say kaffir or kuffar, please remember that the term is not originally intended to be an insulting one.


I was looking for something else and ran across "kafir" in this list.

Najis Things (84 - 148)
* Urine and Faeces
* Semen
* Dead Body
* Blood
* Dogs and Pigs
* Kafir
* Alcoholic Liquor
* Beer (Fuqa')
* Sweat of an Animal Who Persistently Eats Najasat
* Ways of Proving Najasat
* How a Pak Thing Becomes Najis
* Rules Regarding Najasaat

http://al-islam.org/laws/


For a self proclaimed "White American" "Kafir" certainly trips lightly off the tongue, doesn't it?

Perplexed wrote:
I AM THE HOST CULTURE!
What the heck is that supposed to mean, by the way?
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