Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 07:23 am
JustWonders wrote:
I was wondering just what it was that prompted the Danish paper to publish those cartoons in the first place.


That happened already month ago .... and you were discussing here, too ... wondering now.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 07:34 am
Laughing I knew you'd say that Smile
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 07:42 am
So you were just joking, okay then. :wink:
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 09:56 am
When it comes to intolerance, these Muslims take the cake. They are easily whipped into a frenzy because they are on remote control.

When a crowd becomes fanatic, it loses all reason, not a pretty picture.

Even on their annual pilgrimage they manage to trample to death hundreds of their own. Fanaticism is something ugly and it did not die out with the end of nazism.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 05:07 pm
Blasphemy is the inability of relgion to accept difference of opinion or to have its tenets reviewed or critiqued in any shape or form. The Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia are at the source of all this Muslim fundamentalism as they fund almost all the mosques.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 05:12 pm
You keep posting that nonsense about the Wahhabi clan in different threads, Talk. They are certainly a bad lot, but they are not the root of all evil, you know.
0 Replies
 
Cliff Hanger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 05:16 pm
Understandably, the cartoons are offensive to Muslims. But their reaction: "Death to Denmark" says it all.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 05:17 pm
I read a local paper where an imam was thrown out of his own mosque for he instigated an interfaith dialogue. It is was also noted that funding came from Saudi Arabia and the imam was locked out of his own mosque.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 06:51 pm
Three Dutch cartoons on the matter...

http://www.idimager.com/idimager/Users/BAS/Bas_Galerij/International/Images/943F55672DE44B58A7C12FF8CBEEEDA1.jpg

http://www.tomjanssen.net/prenten/english/the_prophet_on_a_cartoon310106.gif

http://www.idimager.com/idimager/Users/BAS/Bas_Galerij/Actueel/Images/8E34992F28F24F639D252BB0E255153A.jpg

(In the last one, the caption is: "Suicide cartoonist", and the cartoonist says: "Did you see my funny Mohammed drawing yet?"
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 06:58 pm
I see a cartoon with Jesus standing on the water and a turban floating next to him. The caption reads.
"Well I guess that settles that argument"
0 Replies
 
chris2a
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2006 01:39 am
Christian Holocaust
Seems the muslims won't settle down until everyone submits to Sharia Law (I dare not use small letters). I think it will eventually come down to a war of attrition. There are more muslims on the planet than any other religious sect. So lets just give in or be murdered.

Hey, guess what folks. This is not the first time muslims have gone on a rampage.

The following article is from http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm

History Of Asia Minor: 1894-1923

During 1894-1923 the Ottoman Empire conducted a policy of Genocide of the Christian population living within its extensive territory. The Sultan, Abdul Hamid, first put forth an official governmental policy of genocide against the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire in 1894.

Systematic massacres took place in 1894-1896 when Abdul savagely killed 300,000 Armenians throughout the provinces. Massacres recurred, and in 1909 government troops killed, in the towns of Adana alone, over 20,000 Christian Armenians.

When WW1 broke out the The Ottoman Empire was ruled by the "Young Turk" dictatorship which allied itself with Germany. Turkish government decided to eliminate the whole of the Christian population of Greeks, Armenians, Syrians and Nestorians. The government slogan, "Turkey for the Turks", served to encourage Turkish civilians on a policy of ethnic cleansing.

The next step of the Armenian Genocide began on 24 April 1915 with the mass arrest, and ultimate murder, of religious, political and intellectual leaders in Constantinople and elsewhere in the empire. Then, in every Armenian community, a carefully planned Genocide unfolded: Arrest of clergy and other prominent persons, disarmament of the population and Armenian soldiers serving in the Ottoman army, segregation and public execution of leaders and able-bodied men, and the deportation to the deserts of the remaining Armenian women, children and elderly. Renowned historian Arnold Toynbee wrote that "the crime was concerted very systematically for there is evidence of identical procedure from over fifty places."

The Genocide started from the border districts and seacoasts, and worked inland to the most remote hamlets. Over 1.5 million Armenian Christians, including over 4,000 bishops and priests, were killed in this step of the Genocide.

The Greek Christians, particularly in the Black Sea area known as Pontus, who had been suffering from Turkish persecutions and murders all the while, saw the Turks turn more fiercely on them as WW1 came to a close. The Allied Powers, at a peace conference in Paris in 1919, rewarded Greece for her support by inviting Prime Minister Venizelos to occupy the city of Smyrna with its rich hinterlands, and they placed the province under Greek control. This action greatly angered the Turks. The Greek occupation was a peaceful one but drew immediate fire from Turkish forces in the outlying areas. When the Greek army farmed out to protect its people, a full-fledged war broke out between Greece and Turkey (the Greco-Turkish war).

The Treaty of Sevres, signed in 1920 to end WW1 and which provided for an independent Armenia, was never ratified. The treaty's terms changed not long after the ink dried as England, France and Italy each began secretly bargaining with Mustafa Kemel (Ataturk) in order to gain the right to exploit oil fields in the Mozul (now Iraq). Betrayed by the Allied Powers, the Greek military front, after 40 long months of war, collapsed and retreated as the Turks began again to occupy Asia Minor.

September 1922 signaled the end of the Greek and Armenian presence in the city of Smyrna. On 9 September 1922, the Turks entered Smyrna; and after systematically murdering the Armenians in their own homes, the forces of Ataturk turned on the Greeks whose numbers had swelled, with the addition of refugees who had fled their villages in Turkey's interior, to upwards of 400,000 men, women and children.

The conquering Turks went from house to house, looting, pillaging, raping and murdering the population. Finally, when the wind had turned so that it was blowing toward the sea so that the small Turkish quarter at the rear of the city was not in danger, Turkish forces, led by their officers, poured kerosene on the buildings and homes of the Greek and Armenian sectors and set them afire. Thus, any remaining live inhabitants of the city were flushed out to be caught between a wall of fire and the sea. The pier of Smyrna became a scene of final desperation as the approaching flames forced many thousands to jump to their death or to be consumed by fire.

The Allied warships and shore patrol of the French, British and American military were eyewitnesses to the events. George Horton, the American Consul in Smyrna, likened the finale at Smyrna to the Roman destruction of Carthage. He is quoted in Smyrna (1922, written by Marjorie Dobkin) as saying: Yet there was not fleet of Christian battleships at Carthage looking on a situation for which their governments were responsible." This horrible act unleashed the last phase of the genocide against the Christians of Turkish Asia Minor.

On 9 September 1997, a series of speakers and memorial services, honoring the memory of the 3.5 million Christians who were murdered by Turkish persecutions from 1894-1923, were held in the greater Baltimore Washington area. The memorial service was conducted by the choirs of St. Mary's Armenian Church, St. Katherine's Greek Orthodox Church, Fr. George Alexson of St. Katherine's, Fr. Vertanes Katayjian of St. Mary's and other Orthodox clergy.
The 75th anniversary of the Christian Holocaust was memorialized on 9 September 1997, the date in 1922 of the destruction of the city of Smyrna. This memorial honors the memory of over 3.5 million Christians who were murdered by Turkish persecutions from 1894-1923. Not only was this the memorial of the Holocaust of Smyrna (now Izmir) and the martyrdom of Smyrna's Metropolitan Chrysostomos, but also of the 3.5 million Christians who perished during the first Holocaust of this century. But the events of 1922 are not an isolated incident. The atrocities committed by Turkish forces against a civilian population began before WW1 and have never ended. This event seeks to expose the continuum of a Turkish campaign of persecution, deportation, and murder designed to rid Asia of its Christian populace.

GREEKS
1914 400,000 conscripts perished in forced labor brigades
1922 100,000 massacred or burned alive in Smyrna
1916-1922 350,000 Pontions massacred or killed during forced deportations
1914-1922 900,000 perish from maltreatment, starvation and massacres; total of all other areas of Asia Minor

TOTAL: 1,750,000 Greek Christians martyred 1914-1922

ARMENIANS
1894-1896 300,000 massacred
1915-1916 1,500,000 perish in massacres and forced deportations (with subsidiaries to 1923)
1922 30,000 massacred or burned alive in Smyrna

TOTAL: 1,800,000 Armenian Christians martyred 1894-1923

SYRIANS AND NESTORIANS
1915-1917 100,000 Christians massacred




The native population of Asia Minor traces its Christian roots to the early days of Christianity. the Armenians, an ancient people, trace their origins back 2500 years. In 301 AD. the Armenian King Dftad declared Christianity as the kingdom's official religion, making Armenia the first Christian political state in the world. The migration of Greek tribes to Asia Minor began just before 2,000 BC and the Greeks built dozens of cities such as Smyrna, Phocaea, Pergamon, Ephesus and Byzantium (Constantinople). The native inhabitants of Asia Minor, among the first to accept the message of Christianity, were later to be persecuted and uprooted from their lands because of that same faith. Turkish tribes plagued the region. Later another tribe, the Oyuz Turks who embraced Islam and ultimately produced the Ottoman Turks, conquered Persia, the Caliphate of Baghdad, and then the whole area presently occupied by Syria, Iraq and Palestine.

Under the Ottoman Empire the Christians suffered a steady decline. Forced conversions to Islam, the abduction of children to serve in the fanatical Janissary corps, persecutions and oppression reduced the Christian population. Oppression intensified, leading to Genocide. Christian clergy were a constant target of Turkish persecution, particularly once the 1894 policy of Armenian genocide had been declared by sultan Abdul Hamid.

Victims of horrible torture, many Orthodox clergy were martyred for their faith. Among the first was Metropolitan Chrysostomos who was martyred, not just to kill a man but, to insult a sacred religion and an ancient and honorable people. Chrysostomos was enthroned as Metropolitan of Smyrna on 10 May 1910. Metropolitan Chrysostomos courageously opposed the anti Christian rage of the turks and sought to raise international pressure against the persecution of Turkish Christians. He wrote many letters to European leaders and to the western press in an effort to expose the genocide policies of the Turks. In 1922, in unprotected Smyrna, Chrysostomos said to those begging him to flee: "It is the tradition of the Greek Church and the duty of the priest to stay with his congregation."

On 9 September crowds were rushing into the cathedral for shelter when Chrysostomos, pale from fasting and lack of sleep, led his last prayer. The Divine Liturgy ended as Turkish police came to the church and led Chrysostomos away. The Turkish General Nouredin Pasha, known as the "butcher of Ionia", first spat on the Metropolitan and informed him that a tribunal in Angora (now Ankara) had already condemned him to death. A mob fell upon Chrysostomos and tore out his eyes. Bleeding profusely, he was dragged through the streets by his beard. He was beaten and kicked and parts of his body were cut off. All the while Chrysostomos, his face covered with blood, prayed: "Holy Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." Every now and then, when he had the strength, he would raise his hand and bless his persecutors; a Turk, realizing what the Metropolitan was doing, cut off his hand with a sword. Metropolitan Chrysostomos was then hacked to pieced by the angry mob.

Among the hundreds of Armenian clergy who were persecuted and murdered were Bishop Khosrov Behrigian and Very Reverend Father Mgrdich' Chghladian.

Bishop Behrigian (1869-1915) was born in Zara and became the primate for the Diocese of Caesarea/Kayseri in 1915. He was arrested by Turkish police upon his return from Etchmiadzin where he had just been consecrated bishop. Informed of his fate, the bishop asked for a bullet to the head. Deliberately ignoring his request, the police tied him to a "yataghan" where sheep were butchered an then proceeded to hack his body apart while he was still alive.

Father Chghladian was born in Tatvan. In May 1915, as part of the campaign of mass arrests, deportations and murders, the priest was tortured and displayed in a procession, led by sheiks and dervishes while accompanied by drums, through the streets of Dikranagerd. Once the procession returned to the mosque, in the presence of government officials, the sheiks poured oil over the priest and burned him alive.

Four of the martyred bishops who were murdered between 1921-1922 are today elevated to sainthood in the Greek Orthodox Church: They are, in addition to Metropolitan Chrysostomos, Bishops Efthimios, Gregorios and Ambrosios.

Bishop Efthimios of Amasia was captured by the Turkish police and tortured daily for 41 days. In the last days of his life he chanted his own funeral memorial until finally dying in his cell on 29 May 1921. Three days later a written order for his execution arrived from Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk).


Metropolitan Gregorios of Kydonion remained with his church until the end, helping 20,000 of his 35,000 parishioners escape to Mytilene and other free parts of Greece. On 3 October 1922, the remaining 15,000 Orthodox Christians were executed; the Metropolitan was saved in order to be buried alive.

Metropolitan Ambrosios of Moshonesion, along with 12 priests and 6,000 Christians, were sent by the Turks on a forced deportation march to Central Asia Minor. All of them perished on the road, some slain by Turkish irregulars and civilians, the remainder left to die of starvation. Bishop Ambrosios died on 15 September 1922 when Turkish police nailed horseshoes to his feet and then cut his body into pieces.

"I was five or six years old in 1922, and I still remember the songs of Akrita and the mourning of the Greek women who carried baskets full of severed heads down from the mountains. I will never forget the women who suddenly realized that one of the heads in the basket she carried was that of her son." - Constantine Koukides, refugee from Pontius

"I have given orders to my Death Units to exterminate without mercy or pity, men, women, and children belonging to the Polish speaking race. It is only in this manner we can acquire the vital territory which we need. After all, who remembers the extermination of the Armenians?" - Adolf Hitler, 22 August 1939
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 12:33 pm
Daryl Cagle, the editorial cartoonist for MSNBC, has some interesting comments regarding the offending cartoons on his website.

I knew each of the 12 Danish cartoonists are now in hiding, but he claims they each were paid only $73 for their contributions. Yikes. Wonder what they're all thinking now.

<I think Cagle's "staircase" cartoon pretty much sums up his feelings on the matter>
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 01:53 pm
good article, JW. maybe it's because i don't read papers or even watch TV much that i hadn't heard of this, but one quote from it caught my eye:

Quote:
The German newspaper Die Welt, which reprinted the Muhammad cartoons, is quoted:

"We'd take Muslim protests more seriously if they weren't so hypocritical. The imams were quiet when Syrian television showed Jewish rabbis as cannibals in a prime-time series."
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 07:58 am
Unless the West takes a stand against the intolerance of Islam, we are going to lose the fight. Islam is going to rule the world in a few decades.
It is time to wake up and show some determination.
....................................
'Everyone Is Afraid to Criticize Islam'

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch politician forced to go into hiding after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, responds to the Danish cartoon scandal, arguing that if Europe doesn't stand up to extremists, a culture of self-censorship of criticism of Islam that pervades in Holland will spread in Europe. Auf Wiedersehen, free speech.
.......................
SPIEGEL: But Muslims, like any religious community, should also be able to protect themselves against slander and insult.

Hirsi Ali: That's exactly the reflex I was just talking about: offering the other cheek. Not a day passes, in Europe and elsewhere, when radical imams aren't preaching hatred in their mosques. They call Jews and Christians inferior, and we say they're just exercising their freedom of speech. When will the Europeans realize that the Islamists don't allow their critics the same right? After the West prostrates itself, they'll be more than happy to say that Allah has made the infidels spineless.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,399263,00.html
0 Replies
 
chris2a
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:00 am
And so mankind is ultimately reduced to the mentality of the lowest common denominator. Well it seems we emerged from the caves a couple of million years ago but the tribal mentality still persists today and the human psyche is still in the dark. Can it be that we are observing the psychological profile of cult worshippers on a massive scale?

Seems we can't "threaten" the ideology and practices of Islam by way of critical thinking under threat of death from the "mob". I must reiterate, it has happened before.
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:18 pm
The clerics are the guilty ones. The raging masses are totally brainwashed and remote controlled.
.......................................
British Jury Finds Muslim Cleric Guilty of Inciting Murder.

February 7, 2006

The Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri was found guilty today by a jury in London on charges of using his sermons to incite murder and race hatred, news agencies reported.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/07/international/europe/07cnd-cleric.html?hp&ex=1139374800&en=4436d042ee605c15&ei=5094&partner=homepage

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2029501,00.html
0 Replies
 
chris2a
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:22 pm
detano inipo wrote:
The clerics are the guilty ones. The raging masses are totally brainwashed and remote controlled.


Well that's why I am wary of all organized religions (is Islam organized?). Like organized crime, they follow the principle of self interest and use brainwashing techniques to achieve their ends.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 01:41 pm
detano inipo wrote:
'Everyone Is Afraid to Criticize Islam'

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch politician forced to go into hiding after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, responds to the Danish cartoon scandal, arguing that if Europe doesn't stand up to extremists, a culture of self-censorship of criticism of Islam that pervades in Holland will spread in Europe. Auf Wiedersehen, free speech.

Thats an effing joke. Ayaan Hirsi Ali must herself be, after our equally Islam-critical Integration and Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk, the single most quoted and interviewed politician of the Netherlands. Not a week goes by or her views on Islam are published in a TV programme, newspaper or magazine. Same for the views of Geert Wilders or Rita Verdonk, or a host of other critics of the behaviour of Dutch Muslims or Moroccans. It's a veritable obsession.

I went home the other week, browsed through the Dutch newspapers, and from the local town paper to the national newspapers, all had "Muslims!", "Moroccans!", on every other page, from news about crime to in-depth analyses of multiculturalism. If there's one thing not happening the last few years in Holland, it's a collective self-censorship of criticism of Islam; I would rather call it an orgy of it. Every politician, every columnist knows that, if he is to appear on that TV show, if he is to score, he has to insert some concerned comment about how those Muslims/Moroccans are getting out of hand.

I'm not denying Hirsi Ali's personal courage in putting forth her POV; she is hounded by extremists for it. But she can hardly complain about lack of coverage of her views; they are all over the place. I'd say that kind of belies the accusation of a "culture of self-censorship".

Quote:
SPIEGEL: But Muslims, like any religious community, should also be able to protect themselves against slander and insult.

Hirsi Ali: That's exactly the reflex I was just talking about: offering the other cheek. Not a day passes, in Europe and elsewhere, when radical imams aren't preaching hatred in their mosques.

And not a day passes that some newspaper doesnt feature an angry expose about it. Neglected, the issue is not.

Quote:
They call Jews and Christians inferior, and we say they're just exercising their freedom of speech. When will the Europeans realize that the Islamists don't allow their critics the same right? After the West prostrates itself, they'll be more than happy to say that Allah has made the infidels spineless.

Whats the logic here? No, Islamists don't allow their critics the same right. Thats the bloody point; that's how we are supposed to be better. Better than their dogmatism and intolerance.

What is Hirsi Ali proposing, that we become like them, or else we are just "prostrating ourselves"?

Yes, the same radical Muslims who are up in arms about the Danish cartoons offending Muslims are the ones who themselves would rail on in offensive stuff about Jews or Christians. So what is Hirsi Ali's point here? That we should stand tall for 'our' offense against them, but clamp down on their offense against us? Isnt that kind of inconsistent?

Either you stand for the freedom of speech, or you accord the need to clamp down on it when it gets too hateful, but you cant cherrypick the one thing for 'our' side and the other for 'theirs'.
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 03:47 pm
nimh, I don't quite understand what you are trying to say.

Muslim leaders are frequently insulting Christians and Westerners.

Have we ever seen large crowds of Christians go berserk and burn down embassies? Have Westerners ever marched with placards asking for the death of Muslim leaders?

Have Christian Europeans ever burned a thousand cars?

We do get upset, but we don't kill or burn. That is the difference:

speaking up is civilized, violence is not.














t
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 04:01 pm
There was an interesting comment by a caller to the CBC, pointing out that most people in the west would get up in arms if Jews were displayed in Nazi uniforms killing Palestinian Bedouins, but want freedom of expression for cartoons which deride Mohammed. It was something that makes you think.
0 Replies
 
 

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