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Fate or self choice

 
 
pseudokinetics
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 02:54 pm
If a butterfly flapping its wings could set a new path in your life then does sight not matter in this concept. So even if you cant see the butterfly or know its there for that matter it does not matter to you though it might matter to somebody watching the butterfly.
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 03:07 pm
Just think, if I squashed that butterfly it may have prevented some great dictator from coming to power and I could save the world from nuclear annihilation! On the other hand, if I DON'T squash the butterly the results could be equally devastating! Oh, what to do, what to DO???
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pseudokinetics
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 03:18 pm
Just think if you squashed that butterfly you killed an innocent creature and you would think nothing of it because everyone says " Its only a butterfly who cares."
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Ethmer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 04:04 pm
We choose.

III Entity Entry Into Life


i Entity's choice

1) The physical form of life that the entity chooses to enter is decided upon by the entity.


2) The entity knows what it wants to experience and accordingly selects that form of life that will be most suitable for its purpose.



ii Entry into man

1) Many entities choose to enter into the life experience in the form of man.


2) The entity decides what it wants to experience or accomplish within a particular incarnation then selects the particular individual form prior to, or around the time of, its birth.


3) The entity knows, prior to making its selection, what its sex will be; what its living conditions and parents will be like; what its approximate life span will be; and what its physical tendencies and characteristics are likely to be.


4) The entity also knows in advance what major life experiences, challenges and tribulations it can expect to encounter during the incarnation.



iii Entity's reasons

1) The entity, when in its non-life experience, has available to it the knowledge of its past.


2) Entities are also able, in their non-life experience, to view the events of the immediate future of the physical plane though what they see is based upon probabilities rather than certainties.


3) The entity decides what lessons it wants to learn and what negative experiences from past sojourns in various planes that it wishes to resolve.


4) The entity's choice of time, place and particular human form wherein to be born is, usually, primarily based upon its own growth needs.


5) In some cases the entity's choice may also be affected by the growth needs of the entities with whom it will be associating.


6) An entity may be sufficiently advanced in its gravitation back toward the Oneness of God that it need not incarnate or reincarnate. It can continue its gravitation within other planes of experience.


7) Some advanced entities choose to enter the physical plane in order to aid in the understanding and growth of entities dwelling therein.


8) Such action by an advanced entity helps it and other entities gravitate faster toward Oneness of God.
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Ashers
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 05:48 pm
^ Very interesting post Ethmer. Smile
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Doktor S
 
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Reply Mon 6 Feb, 2006 10:43 pm
If by 'interesting' you mean 'completely insane' then..agreed!
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:31 am
Doktor S wrote:
Quote:

In a chaotic system like our universe, a "butterfly flapping it's wings" on the other side of the world can alter your decision about what to have for breakfast.

That means that even if free will does not really exist, neither does determinism.....?


I've read this a few times and I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion from that premise, as that premise is one commonly linked to the argument for determinism.
Could you reword this?


Dok, Sorry I'm not terribly fluent in the language of philosophy but what I imagine is that in every second an infinite number of deterministic paths are available to choose from, and selecting any one of those paths changes the paths available to every other being...which effectively is free choice.

In other words, the chaotic tangle of deterministic paths is so dense that if forms a solid floor on which to walk in direction I wish.

Does that make sense?
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pseudokinetics
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:47 am
Eorl, what makes you chose that path?
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shari6905
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 09:54 am
Ethmer- reminds me of a book I read called "Embraced by the light". More of a spiritual discussion but a tid bit for thought: Near death experiance by a woman, she says everything tha happens to us was picked by our spirit before entering this body. So, babys who die after child birth was the spirit wanting to experience only that and they are paired with a spirit who chose to be a mother who wanted to experiencetheloss of a child. Its a nice thought, to believe that all things happen as a learning experience and it keeps cycling over and over til the soul is satisfied.
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Ashers
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:11 am
Doktor S wrote:
If by 'interesting' you mean 'completely insane' then..agreed!


I was going for thought-provoking...but good for you! Laughing
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echi
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 11:49 am
I picked up this thought from someone else in another thread, and it pretty much seals the deal for me on this subject...
We have the experience of free will, but we are only able to make the decision that we most want to make. It is impossible to make any other decision.
So, "choice" is an experience; it is not a creative act.
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pseudokinetics
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:02 pm
Bravo Echi i think you crumbled the cookie.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Feb, 2006 12:27 pm
echi wrote:
I picked up this thought from someone else in another thread, and it pretty much seals the deal for me on this subject...
We have the experience of free will, but we are only able to make the decision that we most want to make. It is impossible to make any other decision.
So, "choice" is an experience; it is not a creative act.

Exactly. As long as time marches forward in it's usual linear fashion, it can be no different. The experience of choice and the illusion of free will will persevere.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 12:38 am
Quote:
It's like a hugely complex game of knockdown dominoes, with literally billions of intersecting chains going on at any one time in any one persons life.
Therefore all choice is is the end result of a web of different causes. There is no actual choice, because you were going to choose the cheerios all along. Just as that last domino will be knocked down a certain way, determined by the movement of the very first domino in the chain.

The illusion comes in that we experience time in a straightforward fashion. We can't examine, therefore know, the future.
Everything we do something that appears as if it were a choice, the fact that we do not know which way we will act seems like freewill. It isn't.
But considering the illusion of freewill is indistinguishable from the real thing without stepping outside of linear time, it doesn't really matter.
It's all pedantics.


Alright this is eating at me. On one hand I can see how you could believe this. In a weird kind of way it sort of makes sense... sort of... But in other ways it goes against everything I believe. And I mean e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. Unless I'm misunderstanding you of course.

I don't know where to begin. As we all know by now (I hope) I'm pretty strait forward about my life and the things I have been through. I'm not ashamed anymore of those things so I talk about them freely. I hope no one finds this offensive, but all I've got is what I am and how I got where I am today. The domino effect makes sense on one hand because I can see that certain things in my childhood led up to certain situations I put myself in later on in life. However, I believe I ended up in a lot of those situations because I didn't know I had any other choice than what life threw at me. Which sucked pretty bad at the time.

To say that all choice is is the end result of a web of different causes sounds utterly ridiculous to me because that is saying basically nullify's how I got where I am today. At one point in my early 20's I actually believed I was destined to be raped every two years. I had a bit of a pattern going on in my life at the time. However, upon further introspection on my part I realized that the choices I was making in my life at that time were what was causing the end result I was getting. Basically I was going out and drinking with men I didn't know and then wondering why I was getting raped. It just happened to be that there seemed to be a common reoccurrence almost every two years to date.

When I realized this, even in my alcoholic state of mind, I realized the solution to the problem was to stop drinking with men I didn't know. So I did. I started drinking alone... (LOL, oh boy) However, the cycle stopped. I turned from one way of living to another by a matter of choice on my part. To say it was anything less than that is to take away my free will. I could have continued in the way I was going but I didn't because I didn't like what the end result was so I stopped the action that was causing the negative reaction. How can you explain that away and say it was some sort of cosmic thing that was destined to be?

Please know I'm not trying to be rude, nasty, or offensive to anyone in saying this. I've just got to say it though. It seems to me that this kind of theory is nothing more than a scapegoat to keep from having to take responsibility for our own actions. If there was nothing we could do about it since it was just part of this chain of events that were destined to happen in our life we would have no responsibility at all in what we do because after all we can't control it right?
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echi
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 03:12 am
Aw, Hep, you're not even a tenth of the way to being impolite.

I think it's all fate, myself, but I don't consider either side (free will or fate) to be without mystery.
This chain of events we're talking about, we can't get outside it. We can't observe it. We ARE it.
I think you're trying to take yourself out of the picture when you think about it. Don't. Try to consider that every thought, every doubt, every good idea is a product. Everything exists for a reason.
You still have a choice, but there are reasons you choose as you do. "Choice" is not "something out of nothing".
Instead of "choosing" consider that you are "experiencing choices".

(Hope I make sense, right now... It's late.)
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pseudokinetics
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 10:00 am
Im leaning toward the whole fate thing myself.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 10:46 am
Quote:
Aw, Hep, you're not even a tenth of the way to being impolite.


Thank you Echi. Very kinds words. Smile I'm still living with a guilty conscience for going off on neo last week. Tends to make me step a little lighter, I guess. Sad Yes what you are saying makes sense, but there's a couple of things I disagree with.

Quote:
This chain of events we're talking about, we can't get outside it. We can't observe it. We ARE it.
I think you're trying to take yourself out of the picture when you think about it. Don't. Try to consider that every thought, every doubt, every good idea is a product. Everything exists for a reason.


I don't know about this Echi. I don't think I'm trying to remove myself. I think on the contrary I am putting myself smack dab in the middle of my own life. LOL I have no where else to be. I do believe everything exists for a reason. Good... bad... whatever it may be...

Quote:
You still have a choice, but there are reasons you choose as you do. "Choice" is not "something out of nothing".
Instead of "choosing" consider that you are "experiencing choices".


I happen to agree with this too. There are definitely different variables in everyone's life that causes them to make the choices they make. My problem is with the idea that there is no choice involved at all on our part, but rather some chain of events that was destined to happen in our life that is beyond our control. I can't squeeze that concept into my little brain because I can't fathom the idea that someone who commit's heinous crimes is a somewhat unwilling participant in what they are doing. They have no choice because that was just the line of domino's they happened to fall into in life. If that is the case why do we have jail? Why do we have laws? Why do we have judges?

You can't say (not saying you said or implied this Echi) on one hand, "Oh I'm floating along on this little path that life laid out for me. I'll end up where ever it is I'm suppose to somehow." Then turn around and condemn someone for doing something wrong by your standards. By doing so you are exempting yourself from responsibility for your actions yet not affording others the same exemption. I believe this is called a double standard.

As far as "Fate" or "Self Choice" goes I have to lean more towards self choice. I believe in destiny. I believe everyone has a destiny. However I don't believe that because everyone has a destiny that is where they will necessarily end up. A couple of wrong choices along the way can easily change the path one is walking on as well as the path many others are walking on too.
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echi
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 12:02 pm
hephzibah wrote:
echi wrote:
This chain of events we're talking about, we can't get outside it. We can't observe it. We ARE it.
I think you're trying to take yourself out of the picture when you think about it. Don't. Try to consider that every thought, every doubt, every good idea is a product. Everything exists for a reason.


I don't know about this Echi. I don't think I'm trying to remove myself. I think on the contrary I am putting myself smack dab in the middle of my own life. LOL I have no where else to be. I do believe everything exists for a reason. Good... bad... whatever it may be...

echi wrote:
You still have a choice, but there are reasons you choose as you do. "Choice" is not "something out of nothing".
Instead of "choosing" consider that you are "experiencing choices".


I happen to agree with this too. There are definitely different variables in everyone's life that causes them to make the choices they make. My problem is with the idea that there is no choice involved at all on our part, but rather some chain of events that was destined to happen in our life that is beyond our control.

Obviously, there is this thing we experience that we call "choice". I don't deny that. What I am saying is that "choice" is not a creation but a synthesis. We want to believe that it is a creation because the ego wants to be God.

hep wrote:
I can't squeeze that concept into my little brain because I can't fathom the idea that someone who commit's heinous crimes is a somewhat unwilling participant in what they are doing. They have no choice because that was just the line of domino's they happened to fall into in life. If that is the case why do we have jail? Why do we have laws? Why do we have judges?

You can't say (not saying you said or implied this Echi) on one hand, "Oh I'm floating along on this little path that life laid out for me. I'll end up where ever it is I'm suppose to somehow." Then turn around and condemn someone for doing something wrong by your standards. By doing so you are exempting yourself from responsibility for your actions yet not affording others the same exemption. I believe this is called a double standard.

You're right. It is a double standard. It's a double standard that I do not support. I don't believe we should ever condemn anyone. But we do, of course, have a responsibility to protect ourselves... that's the justification for keeping people in jail.
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anita2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2006 03:03 pm
What about the Law of Attraction; We get what we expect, for instance "i really wish i had more money" will result in always being always being skint as that is what you're energy is focusing on. Apparently our energy fields will go forth and attract what we're sending out as like attracts like. I'm really trying out this approach at the moment and although the cash hasn't started rolling in yet, nor am i any slimmer, i am certainly more confident and happy in life and at work generally. Have the Laws of Attraction made any significant difference to anyone?
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babsatamelia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2006 08:41 pm
Personally, I don't think that we are "actually" controlled,
however ... when it comes to seking the answers about
what to do next - we have a certain limited set of options
to choose from, so in a way; yes
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