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Religion has no exemption from morality.

 
 
Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2006 10:55 pm
It's very understandable.
Religion is exempted from matters of "truth."
Religion is NEVER questioned about whether it is true or not.

But this does not exempt it from moral concern. If we find something immoral in the Bible or whatever, we can rally and put an end to the practice.

For example, the Bible supports prejudice. Should prejudice be right? Is prejudice right? Do you consider prejudice right? Do you consider discrimination right? The bible says that it is right.

Just because some religion we never heard of said that it is okay to kill, doesn't mean that they should be able to kill because it is their "faith." Similar with any other religion. Just because some religion says that prejudice is right, and that discrimination is right (Christianity), doesn't mean that it is right. Morality has prescedence.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,597 • Replies: 23
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2006 10:59 pm
Ok, a couple of things:

1) Where in the Bible does it promote prejudice and discrimination?
2) Where in the Bible does it promote immorality?
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aktorist
 
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Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2006 11:00 pm
Not directly, but your homophobia, now.
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Arella Mae
 
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Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2006 11:05 pm
Excuse me? I do not even know you. You don't know me. Yet, you label me homophobic?

Just because I do not believe homosexuality is ok, I am homophobic? I don't believe murder is ok. I don't believe lying is ok. I don't believe stealing is ok. I don't believe a lot of things are ok. So, you would label me something for each of these? Mind you, I am not saying they have equal value. I am just saying that if I think something is wrong you would label me?

Isn't that discrimination in itself?

If you are going to make statements like the Bible supports prejudice or discrimination, I think you should back it up.
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echi
 
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Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2006 11:11 pm
Momma--

Do you detest gay people? Do you fear or hate them?
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Arella Mae
 
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Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2006 11:14 pm
echi,

No. I do not detest gay people. I do not fear or hate them. I have two very dear friends that are lesbians. They are like sisters to me. Every person I know does something in their life I think is wrong. And I am sure that everyone I know thinks I do something wrong in their eyes. That is just life.
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echi
 
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Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2006 11:17 pm
Sorry, Aktorist. Momma Angel, here, aint no homophobe.
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Arella Mae
 
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Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2006 11:19 pm
echi wrote:
Sorry, Aktorist. Momma Angel, here, aint no homophobe.

echi,

Thank you!
[/b]http://www.smileys.ws/smls/yahoo/00000060.gif
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aktorist
 
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Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 07:02 am
Quote:
Sorry, Aktorist. Momma Angel, here, aint no homophobe.


But many others, sir
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Arella Mae
 
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Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 10:23 am
I am still waiting for the references in the Bible to back up your assertions, aktorist.

And, what if some people are? There are racists. There are sexists. There are whatever! All we can do is look to ourselves and control and change our own behavior.

Do you really think calling other people homophobes is going to get them to change their way of thinking? Isn't calling them names the same exact thing you are accusing them of? (Discriminating because of something).

The answer is not in labeling. The answer is in discussing and coming to an understanding. It's a lot easier to do that when both sides are entering into the discussion as equals.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 10:33 am
Quote:
homophobia
The term homophobia means an "irrational fear of homosexuality or homosexuals". It is derived from the words homosexual and phobia (meaning panic fear in Greek). The term itself is however often broadened to encompass other feelings such as aversion to, disparagement of, or discrimination against gay people, their lifestyle, or culture.


That was from Wikipedia

Momma- By that definition, you ARE homophobic. You would deny gay couples the right to be married, and enjoy the same benefits as married couples. That is discrimination.

I think that you have mentioned your lesbian friends so many times, that I have lost count. Methinks, "The lady, she doth protest too much!"



I have heard this so often in my life before.

"I am not prejudiced. I have a number of (put particular race, religion or national origin here). friends." or "I know so and so and he's.............. I think that he is a really nice guy."
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 10:44 am
Phoenix,

The only reason I have brought up my friends is because I am not homophobic and they know it. It just seems to be another case of lumping everyone into a single category and I was trying to point out that I do not fit into that category. I use the proof I have.

If you or anyone else wants to call me homophobic because of the definition in the dictionary, fine. So be it. It doesn't change what I am or what I am not.

I suppose I would also be discriminating against those that would benefit from a certain tax law when it might hurt others when I vote against it? I suppose I am being discriminatory when I want laws that protect our neighborhood from sexual offenders that are tougher on them about registering? I suppose I am being discriminatory when I don't want certain people in my house because of the fact I don't like them?

(P.S. I am not equating sexual offenders with homosexuality. In no way at all! I just mentioned that because it is an issue in our town right now.)
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echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:24 am
You make a good point, Phoenix. But I still agree with momma that the word "homophobe" has virtually no constructive value. It's basically the same as calling someone a "fag".
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sozobe
 
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Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:28 am
Phoenix, yes, "Some of my best friends are ____" has entered the realm of cliche.

What Phoenix is saying is rather simple -- no matter what your specific friends think (and someone made this point earlier, that living where they do they have probably made a decision to not make waves -- so what they SAY to you and what they THINK are not at all definitely the same thing), you would deny them the right to marry, if you could.
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Arella Mae
 
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Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:31 am
Yes, sozobe, if I could vote on this issue I would vote no. And that is absolutely no different than anyone else voting for what they believe is right or wrong. Absolutely no difference. I would think it's safe to say that on any law voted on, someone is going to be discriminated against, wouldn't you?
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sozobe
 
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Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:33 am
Depends on the law.

This is the definition I (and I presume Phoenix) is using when we say "discriminate":

Quote:
To make distinctions on the basis of class or category without regard to individual merit; show preference or prejudice: was accused of discriminating against women; discriminated in favor of his cronies.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:46 am
This one's a little more succinct:

Quote:
unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice


http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=discrimination
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 01:27 pm
Momma wrote:
I suppose I am being discriminatory when I don't want certain people in my house because of the fact I don't like them?


And you are entitled to NOT have them in your house. What a person does privately is his own business. That is not the same as THE GOVERNMENT discriminating against certain groups of people.

Quote:
I suppose I am being discriminatory when I want laws that protect our neighborhood from sexual offenders that are tougher on them about registering?


Yes you are, but for an appropriate reason. Sex offenders are dangerous people, and the community needs to be protected from them. Gays are dangerous to no one (unless a particular individual is a criminal, but that is an entirely separate issue.)
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 01:33 pm
Phoenix Wrote:

Quote:
And you are entitled to NOT have them in your house. What a person does privately is his own business. That is not the same as THE GOVERNMENT discriminating against certain groups of people.


And I am perfectly within my legal rights to vote my conscience. We all are. This is really a moot point. I do not get to vote on this.

Quote:
Yes you are, but for an appropriate reason. Sex offenders are dangerous people, and the community needs to be protected from them. Gays are dangerous to no one (unless a particular individual is a criminal, but that is an entirely separate issue.)


So, who is to decide what is appropriate or inappropriate?
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aktorist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 01:33 pm
Quote:
I am still waiting for the references in the Bible to back up your assertions, aktorist.

And, what if some people are? There are racists. There are sexists. There are whatever! All we can do is look to ourselves and control and change our own behavior.

Do you really think calling other people homophobes is going to get them to change their way of thinking? Isn't calling them names the same exact thing you are accusing them of? (Discriminating because of something).

The answer is not in labeling. The answer is in discussing and coming to an understanding. It's a lot easier to do that when both sides are entering into the discussion as equals.


I need no references. You yourself has told me that the bible says that "homosexuality (or homosexual acts) is an abomination."

Discrimination against people who have done nothing is either right or wrong. And homosexual people have done nothing more than heterosexual people.

Take your pick. Is it right, or is it wrong?

Quote:
And, what if some people are? There are racists. There are sexists. There are whatever! All we can do is look to ourselves and control and change our own behavior.


Racism and sexism are also wrong. Homophobia is wrong.

Quote:
And that is absolutely no different than anyone else voting for what they believe is right or wrong.


Your belief that it is wrong is wrong, just like belief in racism and sexism.

Quote:
I suppose I would also be discriminating against those that would benefit from a certain tax law when it might hurt others when I vote against it? I suppose I am being discriminatory when I want laws that protect our neighborhood from sexual offenders that are tougher on them about registering? I suppose I am being discriminatory when I don't want certain people in my house because of the fact I don't like them?


The first is equality for those who have done nothing. The second is basic morality that sex offenders have done something wrong.

Quote:
Yes, sozobe, if I could vote on this issue I would vote no. And that is absolutely no different than anyone else voting for what they believe is right or wrong. Absolutely no difference. I would think it's safe to say that on any law voted on, someone is going to be discriminated against, wouldn't you?


In all cases, discrimination is wrong. It is different from murderers because they have done something wrong. But discrimination is different.

Discrimination is wrong. What you believe in is wrong. Religion/tradition is not an excuse for bigotry.
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