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Prove Christ exists, judge orders priest

 
 
astromouse
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2006 11:47 pm
Going against god's will? Blasphemer!!
If god wanted peace there'd be peace!
If there is no peace is because he does not want peace!
He is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent!
He knows what is, what was and what will!
He can make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it!
But he can because he's omnipotent!
He can heat a microwave burrito so hot even he can't eat it!
But he can because he's omnipotent!
He knows all that will happen and all that happened!
He's everywhere at once.... but he needs money!
Please help us build a better house for god by donating just $19.99 and as a gift from us to you, you'll recieve this collectors edition plate with an illustration of Jesus eating a microwaveable burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it ! but he is!
So stop praying Momma Angel, you are trying to go against god's will, and that is sacrilegious.
I know so because god told me so.
pd. he also told me Iran has weapon of mass destruction that were moved there from Iraq.
Razz
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2006 11:50 pm
Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 12:08 am
joefromchicago wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Is there physical evidence Julius Ceasar existed? Curius is all...

Yes, it's true: the only physical evidence we have points to the existence of Curius.
Quote:
Quintus Curius Maximus Fistula (app. A.D. 27 - 65): Curius was a general in the Roman army during the early imperial period. In A.D. 59 he led the invasion of Albania, for no good reason. He is briefly mentioned in Suetonius's Lives of the Caesars as "the most aromatic man in all of Rome." Curius served as proconsul in the province of Latvia (current day Lithuania) after reportedly receiving the command of the emperor Claudius (A.D. 41-54) to "go somewhere, anywhere!" Upon his return to Rome, he married the emperor's "kissin' cousin," Octavia Agrippina Enema, who bore him three children -- "one of each," as he liked to joke at parties (but, sadly, it was true). In A.D. 65 the emperor Nero falsely accused his wife Poppea of adultery and stomped her to death: Curius, unfortunately, was underneath Poppea at the time. Although many of the details of Curius's life are sketchy, historians are certain that he existed. A fragment of Curius's diary has been preserved in the Vatican Library, starting with the famously enigmatic sentence "Sum Claudius fluvus" (I am Curius, yellow).


Very clever. Too bad you're such a Lib! Cool
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 12:14 am
Momma Angel wrote:
Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


On occasion, I must admit, I have posted on A2K while in an altered state of mind.

It doesn't make astromouse's post anymore intelligible but I can relate.
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astromouse
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 12:22 am
That was the whole point.
But no, I'm not in any altered state of mind, my drug of choice is caffeine, and it's way too late for me to take another cup , I needs my beauty sleep.

intelligible? as if!

Good night and be ware of televangelists.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 12:28 am
Lash wrote:
So, you refute this?

________________

Q: "Are there any historical writings, other than the Bible, that prove that Jesus ever really lived?"

our A: Yes. Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120) was considered the greatest historian of ancient Rome. He wrote of Nero who "punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus [Christ], the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originiated, but through the city of Rome also."1

Also, Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian, (A.D. 38-100+) wrote about Jesus in his Jewish Antiquities, saying that Jesus was a wise man who did surprising feats, taught many, won over followers from among Jews and Greeks, that Jesus was believed to be the Messiah, was accused by the Jewish leaders, was condemned to be crucified by Pilate, and was considered to be resurrected.2

The existence of Jesus Christ is recorded not only by Josephus and Tacitus, but also by ancient writers such as Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, and Lucian. And from the Jewish Talmud, "we learn that Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, gathered disciples, made blasphemous claims about himself, and worked miracles, but these miracles are attributed to sorcery and not to God."3

Thus, historians both favorable and unfavorable regarding Jesus did write about him. Also there were many historical writings about the early Christians.

_____________________

You refute that he is spoken about in rather unsavory terms in some ancient Jewish writings?

_____________________

What was all that hub-bub about around 33AD?


What? No response from Setanta the canine Herodotus ab A2K?
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 12:31 am
astromouse wrote:
That was the whole point.
But no, I'm not in any altered state of mind, my drug of choice is caffeine, and it's way too late for me to take another cup , I needs my beauty sleep.

intelligible? as if!

Good night and be ware of televangelists.


You must have sneaked another cup of java because intelligible? as if! is unintelligible.
0 Replies
 
astromouse
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 02:11 am
I just finished watching "Welcome to Dongmakgol"(I liked it) NOW I'm going to sleep.
I didn't sneak one but I'm not the best at orthography, so I'll take your word for it.
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 03:27 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
On occasion, I must admit, I have posted on A2K while in an altered state of mind.


On occasion! It seems the norm, Finn. Smile
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 07:53 am
The Tacitus passage is suspect, and many scholars consider it an interpolation. Whether or not it were an interpolation, it does not confirm that any such individual ever existed, only that there were such a cult. Given that it refers to the fire at Rome in 66 CE, and given that christians themselves were not calling themselves christians either in in 66 CE, nor in about 103 CE, when Tacitus completed The Annals of Imperial Rome, the passage remains suspect.

Josephus was a law-abiding Jew in the liturgical sense. He had betrayed the Jewish revolt in the first century, and was rewarded with Roman citizenship, and took the the names Titus Flavius in honor of the two Roman commanders (both of whom succeeded to the Imperial dignity) who had fought the Jews in Palestine. Despite that betrayal (and perhaps because of it), Josephus remained a devout and proselytizing Jew even after removing to Rome. The suggestion that he believed that the Messiah had come, and recorded the fact in a history which does not otherwise mention that cult, or any other Judaic cult, is highly suspicious--the prospect is very good that the Josephus passage is an interpolation also. An on-line search for Tacitus+interpolation and Josephus+interpolation will yeild thousands of results, the most of which link to pages displaying sound scholarship. I have no doubt, however, that Lash will believe what she likes, even in the face of a mountain of evidence.

There are no particular records of anything which can reasonably be referred to as "all that hub-bub about around 33AD?" Additionally, that ignores that the reform of the calendar in the late sixteenth century in the time of a Pope Gregory (hence, Gregorian calendar) revealed that the most likely time for the birth of the putative Jesus would have been 4 BCE--meaning that if he were executed in his thirty-third year, it would have occured in 28 or 29 CE.

Poor scholarship has no excuse, but no scholarship at all is simply laughable and makes a fool of those who make assertions without basis.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 11:47 am
astromouse wrote:
Easy, pray for a miracle to happen and problem solved!
I mean come on he's the son of god, I'm sure he can pull some strings around hu?
Even better, since the preach can talk to god (as every preach claims to do) why not ask him directly for proof?
Cut the middleman out! I'm sure god keeps a copy of Jc's birth certificate around....

Some here are discussing the faith aspect of why they believe Jesus actually lived around the present day Israel a couple of thousand years ago. I'm not. I'm discussing writings from non-religious people circa that time--and writings from religious people, who were very negative about his teachings---who knew He lived, but thought He was a heretic.

I think there is too much evidence to say He didn't live at all. Of course, the fact that He lived doesn't prove, for some, that He was the Messiah.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 12:20 pm
So, in the face of Setanta's brilliant response, let's recap:

Whatever we don't like is suspect.

Whatever we don't like could have been written by pretenders.

It is the other people, who prefer to believe as they do despite a mountain of evidence.

Mm hmm.

However, he was false when he said the writings of Caesars, historians from the period, and opposing religious documents don't mention/ describe Jesus.

They undeniably do.

Like it or not.
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astromouse
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 12:44 pm
I know Jesus existed, hell he still does!
Every saturday around 9:00 am he and his brother Juan come around to mow the lawn and trim the hedges.
I'll ask him for a birth certificate next time he comes around...como se dice birth certificate?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 01:26 pm
Discovery had an interesting program on the life of the man, Jesus. Maybe they can get it on VHS and show it to the judge.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 02:13 pm
PBS did a 4-hour series, too. Anyone TIVO it?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 08:35 pm
Lash wrote:
So, in the face of Setanta's brilliant response, let's recap:

Whatever we don't like is suspect.

Whatever we don't like could have been written by pretenders.

It is the other people, who prefer to believe as they do despite a mountain of evidence.

Mm hmm.

However, he was false when he said the writings of Caesars, historians from the period, and opposing religious documents don't mention/ describe Jesus.

They undeniably do.

Like it or not.


Lash has provided a long passage on the first page of this thread, without attribution, which asserts that Tacitus provides "proof" that the putative Jesus existed. I believe that no attribution was provided because it was drawn from a christian web site, or a web site favorable to a christian view, and that Lash knows this will be obvious if we have the attribution. How ironic, given the frequency with which that member chides others for not "providing a link."

Lash is smart enough to know that if it were known that her source were christian, the source automatically becomes suspect. Of course, if a source to rebut the contentions she has made were "atheist," the same "conflict of interest" would be apparent. Therefore, i provide the following from Drew University. Drew University is a liberal arts school in northern New Jersey. The material i will link here is from a graduate level course in the Theological School at Drew. The opening page of the University's section on its Theological School has a welcome from the Dean, the second paragraph of which, reads, in its entirety:

The Dean of the Drew University Theological School wrote:
Our journey toward wisdom and holiness has its own seasons as we live here together. Gently we become community as we worship, study, play and eat. While our United Methodist connections are extremely important to us, we also represent more than twenty denominations and many communities with no denominational identity. We come from many different countries and states, and represent a variety of ethnic cultures. What a unique gift this environment is to the preparation for ministry!


I think it reasonable to assert that a theological school affiliated with the United Methodists is free of any anti-christian taint. Darrell J. Dougherty, Professor of New Testament, provides this page on the Neronian persecution allegedly described in Tacitus.

Professor Dougherty wrote:
But the real question concerns the historical reliability of this information--i.e., whether we have to do here with a later Christian insertion. When I consider a question such as this, the first question to ask is whether it [is] conceivable or perhaps even probable that later Christians might have modified ancient historical sources; and the answer to this question certainly must be yes! Then, with regard to this particular source, I note that the earliest manuscript we have for the Annales dates from the 11th century, and must therefore have been copied and recopied many times, by generations of Christian scribes (and Christian apologists). So there were certainly opporunities to modify what Tacitus originally wrote.


(Please note that Professor Dougherty here relies upon the knowledge of those whom he addresses, when he states that an 11th century manuscript has surely been copied and recopied many times. The graduate students whom he addresses in his course can reasonably be assumed to know that Tacitus completed The Annals of Imperial Rome in about 103 CE.)

I urge those who wish to pursue this to read the linked page. You can also use the "Return to Home Page" link there to look at other materials from Professor Dougherty's course. The topic of the course, however, is not the historicity of the putative Jesus, but rather, the historical foundation of the claims of wide-spread christian martyrdom in the Roman empire. Such contentions are also usually canards which were much exagerated by christians, in those cases in which they were not fabricated out of hand.

It is a simple matter to find information on interpolations in ancient texts from sources which have sound credentials to argue the point. One needn't believe me, nor Lash--one can find many examples such as that which i have provided by online searches.

Once again, i think it speaks volumes for the reliability of this source that a member of the faculty of a theological school associated with a christian denomination considers the Tacitus passage to be an interpolation.
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 09:25 pm
The fact that we are having this conversation is proof that there is no definitive proof that Jesus existed.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 08:20 am
I am just glad that at this present time we would not have that type of case brought before the courts in the US. This is why I fervently hope that we don't get so far down on slippery slope of mixing religion and government that anything like that could take place in US courts. (Coming from either pro-religious -anti-religious)
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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 08:37 am
revel wrote:
I am just glad that at this present time we would not have that type of case brought before the courts in the US. This is why I fervently hope that we don't get so far down on slippery slope of mixing religion and government that anything like that could take place in US courts. (Coming from either pro-religious -anti-religious)


I think it would be grand to see a case, or a number of cases in courts, Revel.

More in depth questions could be adjudicated upon. Prove, not that Jesus existed, but that he was the son of god. But before that, prove that god exists.

Explain why god seems to favor any given individual's religion to the exclusion of the other godless religions.

Why did god forsake the RC's and help Luther and the boys set up a whole stream of spin off protestant religions.

How come the one your papa/mama raised you in is the true religion?
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 08:55 am
I don't think it would grand at all. Regardless of the loud political religious 'right' in the US, religion is supposed to be free from government interference. If you believe the tooth fairy is god, you should be able to believe it in peace without having to prove it in a court of law.

Of course in my opinion, the political religious 'right' are begging to put to be put in courts by forcing religion down the throats of Americans by pushing such issues like banning same sex marriage and trying to have the Bible in various public schools. Right now they probably think, "well we are getting the courts stacked in our favor" but political trends change and eventually people in the courts die and new ones come in who might be militant atheist, then it would be a different kettle of fish all together.
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