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Richard Dawkins's view on retribution

 
 
Krekel
 
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 01:46 pm
Quote:
Let's all stop beating Basil's car

Ask people why they support the death penalty or prolonged incarceration for serious crimes, and the reasons they give will usually involve retribution. There may be passing mention of deterrence or rehabilitation, but the surrounding rhetoric gives the game away. People want to kill a criminal as payback for the horrible things he did. Or they want to give "satisfaction' to the victims of the crime or their relatives. An especially warped and disgusting application of the flawed concept of retribution is Christian crucifixion as "atonement' for "sin'.

Retribution as a moral principle is incompatible with a scientific view of human behaviour. As scientists, we believe that human brains, though they may not work in the same way as man-made computers, are as surely governed by the laws of physics. When a computer malfunctions, we do not punish it. We track down the problem and fix it, usually by replacing a damaged component, either in hardware or software.

Basil Fawlty, British television's hotelier from hell created by the immortal John Cleese, was at the end of his tether when his car broke down and wouldn't start. He gave it fair warning, counted to three, gave it one more chance, and then acted. "Right! I warned you. You've had this coming to you!" He got out of the car, seized a tree branch and set about thrashing the car within an inch of its life. Of course we laugh at his irrationality. Instead of beating the car, we would investigate the problem. Is the carburettor flooded? Are the sparking plugs or distributor points damp? Has it simply run out of gas? Why do we not react in the same way to a defective man: a murderer, say, or a rapist? Why don't we laugh at a judge who punishes a criminal, just as heartily as we laugh at Basil Fawlty? Or at King Xerxes who, in 480 BC, sentenced the rough sea to 300 lashes for wrecking his bridge of ships? Isn't the murderer or the rapist just a machine with a defective component? Or a defective upbringing? Defective education? Defective genes?

Concepts like blame and responsibility are bandied about freely where human wrongdoers are concerned. When a child robs an old lady, should we blame the child himself or his parents? Or his school? Negligent social workers? In a court of law, feeble-mindedness is an accepted defence, as is insanity. Diminished responsibility is argued by the defence lawyer, who may also try to absolve his client of blame by pointing to his unhappy childhood, abuse by his father, or even unpropitious genes (not, so far as I am aware, unpropitious planetary conjunctions, though it wouldn't surprise me).

But doesn't a truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility, whether diminished or not? Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused's physiology, heredity and environment. Don't judicial hearings to decide questions of blame or diminished responsibility make as little sense for a faulty man as for a Fawlty car?

Why is it that we humans find it almost impossible to accept such conclusions? Why do we vent such visceral hatred on child murderers, or on thuggish vandals, when we should simply regard them as faulty units that need fixing or replacing? Presumably because mental constructs like blame and responsibility, indeed evil and good, are built into our brains by millennia of Darwinian evolution. Assigning blame and responsibility is an aspect of the useful fiction of intentional agents that we construct in our brains as a means of short-cutting a truer analysis of what is going on in the world in which we have to live. My dangerous idea is that we shall eventually grow out of all this and even learn to laugh at it, just as we laugh at Basil Fawlty when he beats his car. But I fear it is unlikely that I shall ever reach that level of enlightenment.


This is a very interesting thought, even the most logical thinkers can't help but blame someone for something. It's illogical, but natural.

To think about: what would the world look like if we'd abandon this example of our human nature and replace it with a more rational alternative? Would it be better, or worse? I mean, I love Kill Bill, 'a revenge flick', plus I'd love to have revenge myself one day, they say it's "sweet"! However, it's kind of silly to seek revenge on a car, isn't it?


My two cents: it isn't silly to seek revenge on a car ... if you're a car yourself!
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 02:20 pm
It isn't a view of retribution at all.

It is a view of retribution seen from a certain perspective at the time and place it was written.It is subjective.Thus not scientific.
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Krekel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 02:27 pm
spendius wrote:
It isn't a view of retribution at all.

It is a view of retribution seen from a certain perspective at the time and place it was written.It is subjective.Thus not scientific.


You're contradicting yourself, did you notice that?




Plus, it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard...
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 02:33 pm
A view of the Eiffel Tower may be a view from a mile off or from the lift going up.Neither IS the Eiffel Tower.
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Krekel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 02:38 pm
spendius wrote:
A view of the Eiffel Tower may be a view from a mile off or from the lift going up.Neither IS the Eiffel Tower.


Well, be that as it may, I didn't state Richard Dawkins's view on retribution is retribution, I stated that Richard Dawkins's view on retribution is a view on retribution. So what's your point?
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 03:07 pm
Dawkins is a scientific reductionist. His views do not allow for developments in science which allow fo teleological explation (A happened IN ORDER THAT B happens). Dawkins ignores that such forms are even found in Physics but are particularly prevalent in the behavioral sciences. Try explaining "a dog begging" in terms of physics and chemistry !

What Dawkins is doing philosophically is making what Ryle called a "category mistake", Ryle illustrates this by the question asked by naive tourists when they visit a city like Oxford with its many colloges and libraries....they ask "but where is the university". So irrespective of "retribution" having neural correlates which may or may not have mechanistic attributes, the "essence" of retribution is lost by such attempted an reduction.
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Krekel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 03:15 pm
That's great, Fresco, but what do you think of his view on retribution as stated in the opening post? By which I mean: humans are formed by nature and nurture, every choice either comes from the one or the other, no matter which, it's an outside impusle. So: what's the difference between having revenge on a car and having revenge on a fellow human being?

I mean, a car also has it's output based on input.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 03:23 pm
I'll leave that one for fresco.

I think his view is loaded on the side of the individual in the ever present tension between the individual and society.

I would expect that of someone who seeks popularity and fame.He is expert at it.I admire his skill.But his view is subjective.I'll refrain from discussing whether or not it is conscious but it either is or isn't so you can try either.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 03:30 pm
bm

dawkins is right btw
0 Replies
 
Krekel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 03:33 pm
spendius wrote:
I'll leave that one for fresco.

I think his view is loaded on the side of the individual in the ever present tension between the individual and society.

I would expect that of someone who seeks popularity and fame.He is expert at it.I admire his skill.But his view is subjective.I'll refrain from discussing whether or not it is conscious but it either is or isn't so you can try either.



Allright, forget Dawkins, **** him, but think about the idea: a human's hard disc consists of the hardware (nature) and software (nurture), no matter how you add them up, they're outside impluses.


So, therefore, thus, yippie, thus, yahoooo, therefore; do you agree on this, that retribution is silly, in this way?
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Krekel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 03:34 pm
I can't say **** here? Really? That's childish ...
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 03:36 pm
Krekel wrote:

So, therefore, thus, yippie, thus, yahoooo, therefore; do you agree on this, that retribution is silly, in this way?
do you?
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Krekel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 03:38 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Krekel wrote:

So, therefore, thus, yippie, thus, yahoooo, therefore; do you agree on this, that retribution is silly, in this way?
do you?


Well, like I said, it is silly, unless you're a car as well.

Do you?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 04:26 pm
Quote:
dawkins is right btw


Well Steve-I don't see it.

If we have a selfish gene then to be unselfish is to beat it up.I think it's a Freudian foundation but he may have got it elsewhere and took it on a trip.

Hence a range of illnesses.Beating your genes up isn't good for you.So one has to risk one's health to be unselfish.So if you want to be unselfish here's your justification.Prof Dawkins.It is not only not your fault but a duty to yourself to be unselfish.Which is a great idea.I'll admit that.But 300 million selfish healthy wunderkind running loose in one social system is a different matter entirely.Selfish means running loose I think.And it seems logical to me that Nanny then becomes necessary.Or Big Brother himself.

It is popular to promote individualism.I think a theologian would make mincemeat out of it.I think he wants to be loved and admired and he has a large constituency.

But it's that time again.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 05:11 pm
Krekel

I thought I'd answered about Dawkins.

My view of "retribution" is that it functions as a viable concept in the web of social reality. Such reality allows for metaphors such as the personification of objects (She's a good ship etc)
and the anthropomorphism of nations ("America is to blame for problems in the Middle East") . We interact with each other according to such a semantic network on daily basis. The fact that such interactions may have no "scientific basis" is irrelevent. In the limit it could be argued that the reality of all concepts is social, including "physical objects" and "causality".
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jan, 2006 05:15 pm
spendius wrote:
Quote:
dawkins is right btw


Well Steve-I don't see it.

If we have a selfish gene then to be unselfish is to beat it up.I think it's a Freudian foundation but he may have got it elsewhere and took it on a trip.

Hence a range of illnesses.Beating your genes up isn't good for you.So one has to risk one's health to be unselfish.So if you want to be unselfish here's your justification.Prof Dawkins.It is not only not your fault but a duty to yourself to be unselfish.Which is a great idea.I'll admit that.But 300 million selfish healthy wunderkind running loose in one social system is a different matter entirely.Selfish means running loose I think.And it seems logical to me that Nanny then becomes necessary.Or Big Brother himself.

It is popular to promote individualism.I think a theologian would make mincemeat out of it.I think he wants to be loved and admired and he has a large constituency.

But it's that time again.
from the moment I picked up on your post I was convulsed with laughter. Some day I intend reading it. No offense or defense spendi far too late here beddie bed times...
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