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Creation Museum

 
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 06:29 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Chumly,

What of the Sci-Fi movies with all the different species? The technology? Are these real? Are they anti-reason? I would say some definitely are, wouldn't you? Sure, it is commonly accepted that these are "fictional" I understand that. But, are they fictional in a child's mind? Don't some believe in this kind of thing?

I'm with Setanta on this one (don't faint anyone Shocked ), the right to have this museum is clear. Not visiting it is also a clear right.
That is a fair enough rationale except that is my understanding that the people and impetus behind the museum act and affiliate to enforce their brand of ardent Christianity on the "great unwashed" and therein in lies the difference between different brands of fantasy and imagination such as SF might represent and/or Disney, and overt anti-science action-oriented agendas such as creationism's mandate of "equal time".

Let's not confuse these three things: 1) my tacit acceptance of the museum per se, 2) Creationism's overt agenda through political and other means, 3) my interest in Science Fiction Literature. As an aside there have been very few Science Fiction movies as almost all are Speculative Fiction / Horror not Science Fiction.

It is true I like Science Fiction, Hard Science Fiction specifically which tends to extrapolate on known premises. I am not much of a fan of Speculative Fiction / Horror which is more the branch you allude to, although I can be up for a good allegorical tale. BTW some believe religious tomes represent allegorical tales, inclusive of the Christian Bible).

Many people bunch all Science Fiction together into one lump and figure it's all pretty much the same. Not so. For example Gregory Benford and David Brin are two authors I like, both strongly emphasize the science in SF and both are scientists.

Greg Benford http://www.newmars.com/archives/000062.shtml
Quote:

Dr. Gregory Benford is no slouch as a scientist. In an impressive career researching plasma turbulence and astrophysics, he has written over 150 research papers, holds an Associate Professorship at University of California, Irvine, has received the prestigious Lord Foundation award for scientific achievement, and advises NASA on national space policy. Benford was also recently elected to the Board of Directors of the Mars Society.
Somehow, Benford has found time along the way to become one of the most respected modern writers of hard science fiction, having received the Campbell and two Nebula awards in an impressive career spanning more than thirty years and including such works as 'Timescape' and his six-novel galactic center sequence including 'In the Ocean of Night' and 'Great Sky River.' Mars Society president Robert Zubrin calls his novel 'The Martian Race', "one of the finest novels about human exploration of the Red Planet ever written."
David Brin http://www.davidbrin.com/
Quote:
He recently posted a page to assist teachers interested in using science fiction to teach science. He has been both a NASA consultant and a physics professor. THE WAR ON SCIENCE: Will the first decade of the 21st Century be known as the time when our Scientific Age came to a whimpering end? The one trait shared by anti-modernists of both left and right appears to be disdain for our ability to learn and do bold new things. My review of Chris Mooney's The Republican War on Science (published in the San Diego Union-Tribune), explores how partisanship can explain much of this collapse of confidence... and why partisan interpretations don't cover everything.
On a related note, two recommended books that tout assertive problem solving are The Past and Future of America's Economy: Long Waves of Innovation that Power Cycles of Growth By Robert D. Atkinson and Ray Kurzweil's The Singularity is Near. The first explores measures that would allow us to play our roles better in the world economy. The latter pursues Kurzweil's argument that our scientific competence and technologically-empowered creativity will soon skyrocket, propelling humanity into an entirely new age. I don't entirely agree. But boy, what a ride.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 06:32 pm
Chumly,

The main thing here though is the right to have this museum. I would imagine anyone could have a museum about anything if they wanted one. Whether it lasts or prospers will be dependent upon the public. So, the decision is right where it should be, with each of us individually.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 06:39 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Chumly,

The main thing here though is the right to have this museum. I would imagine anyone could have a museum about anything if they wanted one. Whether it lasts or prospers will be dependent upon the public. So, the decision is right where it should be, with each of us individually.
As discussed that was not the "main thing" / issue of contention (well at least from my modest perspective and intent for posting)
Quote:
Let's not confuse these three things: 1) my tacit acceptance of the museum per se, 2) Creationism's overt agenda through political and other means, 3) my interest in Science Fiction Literature
What Effect Would Teaching Creationism in Science Class Have on Education? http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/educate.htm
Quote:
Despite the Supreme Court ruling that creation "science" is religious in nature and cannot be legislated into the classroom, the creationist movement has continued its efforts to have their Biblical version of "science" taught to students. We must therefore look at what effect creationism has had on American science education, and what further effect it would have if the creationists should ever be successful in their campaign to replace science with Divine Revelation.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 06:54 pm
Chumly,

Pssst. I don't think Creationism should be taught as science. Laughing
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 10:32 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
real life wrote:

Adults who have sex in front of children are not normal, neither are those who think of it as normal.


You are qualifying here some hundredmillions of people to be not normal, besides nearly all of everyone's anchestor's - as Set already explained.


Our society does not consider it normal. *shakes head after stating what seems obvious*

Any law enforcement, legal professionals, social workers etc care to enlighten us as to what the likely legal consequences of such an action might be?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 01:26 am
Momma Angel wrote:
Chumly,

Pssst. I don't think Creationism should be taught as science. Laughing
Your personal views (in this regard) are not shared by the Museum's credo.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 05:48 am
The worse pornography is abusing children by telling them lies. That I find truly disgusting. However child abuse goes on, I cant stop, just dont think its acceptable here.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 06:18 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
The worse pornography is abusing children by telling them lies. That I find truly disgusting. However child abuse goes on, I cant stop, just dont think its acceptable here.


The problem is that the people who will take their kids to that museum actually BELIEVE that stuff. Parents have been stuffing kid's heads with all sorts of beliefs that many of us think are false, and, like it or not, it is their right.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 06:25 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
The worse pornography is abusing children by telling them lies. That I find truly disgusting. However child abuse goes on, I cant stop, just dont think its acceptable here.


The problem is that the people who will take their kids to that museum actually BELIEVE that stuff. Parents have been stuffing kid's heads with all sorts of beliefs that many of us think are false, and, like it or not, it is their right.
You are correct. It is their right. And it shouln't be. What about the rights of the child?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 06:26 am
There already exists a few "Creation as Science" museums in the US. All of them are built upon a lie and some careful bending of evidence. The Paluxy River Musuem in Texas, straddles the Paluxy Shale beds where , in the 80's two enterprising Creationist bubbas came along and altered a series of dinosaur footprints that appear on the shale beds. They carved out what appeared to be human foot prints. ALthough the fraud was discovered by a couple of grad students who did detailed macrophotos of the "footprints and showed how they were altered by chipping, the Institute of Creation Research had funded a museum that uses the "discovery of human footprints next to dinosaurs" as proof positive that man and dinos lived together and, by extension, the world ws not as old as science claims it is. This is being pushed as science because, within the museum are all sorts of displays that try to poo poo radiometrics , an old earth, and even misrepresent what genetics teaches. about evolution. The museum discredits scientific "theories" but uses the theories it feels can help their argument. In short , the mueum is vaseed on no evidence, made-up evidence, outright untruths, and deception. However, it was built with private funds and I dont believe its a 501 (c)3 organization so , just like the museums of "bigfoot""Paul Bunyan" or the "Jersey Devil" , it passes the tests .

I can assume no different for the proposed museum in Ohio except, Im sure, it will try to be a lot more slick and will use its trick of quote mining to an extreme. Im sure it will try to be as scientific as it can. If it materializes, I can see no problem with taking a class of college kids in the geo or bio programs to attempt to find the "Misteaks". Itll be fun. Can you imagine asking the docents for scientific background on a subject? ALl youlld get are the standard AIG bullshit.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 06:30 am
thanks for the background info Farmerman
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 06:33 am
didnt have time to correct my spelling errors , oh well. I wanted to add, that, should the proposed museum in Ohio , attempt tax free status, then we will have another story entirely.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 07:06 am
Excellent post FM . . . however, you've got a problem here. They intend to locate it near Covington, Kentucky. With more than one bridge over the Ohio, Covington, Kentucky is simply "the other side of town" as far as Cincinnati is concerned. I rather suspect that the point is that if anyone protests or mocks, they intend to rely upon a suspicion of "foreigners" on the part of the citizens of Kentucky. Located in Ohio, which is not necessarily to be considered "a red state" (it was very close in the last election, and accusations of a rigged election continue to fly), it would certainly be a target. Located in Kentucky, they would attempt to get a large audience and a venue convenient to tourism without falling afoul of Ohio, its laws and its population.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 07:18 am
Quote:
You are correct. It is their right. And it shouln't be. What about the rights of the child?


Steve (as 41oo) - Who is to be the arbiter of what is appropriate to teach a child? Certainly not the government. (I would expect that this government would heartily approve of what is being taught by this museum Evil or Very Mad ) The only thing that we can do is have the expectation that many of these children will see through the falsity of this museum, and question it as they mature. You may very well see young people who enter college, totally confused by the dichotomy of learning what science says, and comparing it to what they have been taught as kids.

Actually, in the present society, children have pitifully few rights. Unless the parents are woefully unfit, kids are at the mercy of any irrationalities that parents choose to foist on them. But that is a large, and totally separate issue, that might well be discussed in the philosophy forum.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 07:32 am
Are you-a sayin that us folks in Kaintucky caint tell a fart from a bullfrawg?
Yeh I remember always flying into "Cinncinatti AP" but renting a car in Kentucky. It took me a while to understand that the airport is in another state.So what your saying set is that Kentucky will be a bit more "Creation Friendly"? Itd be a joke to put this museum in the same area where the Fed EPA researchand toxics substance labs are located.
I think the "Ames" test on mutability was developed at the Breidenbach labs in Cinncinnatti.
Here we have a lab that does testing on environmentally induced mutation and next door we has us a MEEWZEEUM of KEERATION, daayyumm. Book me a flight to Cinccinnatti Kathy.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 10:08 am
farmerman wrote:
Are you-a sayin that us folks in Kaintucky caint tell a fart from a bullfrawg?
Yeh I remember always flying into "Cinncinatti AP" but renting a car in Kentucky. It took me a while to understand that the airport is in another state.So what your saying set is that Kentucky will be a bit more "Creation Friendly"? Itd be a joke to put this museum in the same area where the Fed EPA researchand toxics substance labs are located.
I think the "Ames" test on mutability was developed at the Breidenbach labs in Cinncinnatti.
Here we have a lab that does testing on environmentally induced mutation and next door we has us a MEEWZEEUM of KEERATION, daayyumm. Book me a flight to Cinccinnatti Kathy.


Ya big dummy!! I think you're all inbred!! Twisted Evil

Anon
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 10:48 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
You are correct. It is their right. And it shouln't be. What about the rights of the child?


Steve (as 41oo) - Who is to be the arbiter of what is appropriate to teach a child? Certainly not the government. (I would expect that this government would heartily approve of what is being taught by this museum Evil or Very Mad ) The only thing that we can do is have the expectation that many of these children will see through the falsity of this museum, and question it as they mature. You may very well see young people who enter college, totally confused by the dichotomy of learning what science says, and comparing it to what they have been taught as kids.

Actually, in the present society, children have pitifully few rights. Unless the parents are woefully unfit, kids are at the mercy of any irrationalities that parents choose to foist on them. But that is a large, and totally separate issue, that might well be discussed in the philosophy forum.
Well of course I deliberately asked a provocative question. And I would hate the idea of the government being the arbiter of what is appropriate to teach a child...thats why we have in the UK a National Curriculum set by the Governent....er Shocked

Ok so you pay to have your kid educated at a private school, which must conform to basic educational standards as set by ...

Right enough this, everyone has the inalienable right to teach their children what they want, at home if necessary using private tutors. Except the school inspector wants to know why your 5 year old is not at school. And will only allow home education if you can demonstrate the child is receiving a balanced and rounded education, an education Her Majesty's School Inspector approves of. Apart from that the Government in no way acts as an arbiter of what is appropriate to teach a child, not here anyway.

Sad
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 12:43 pm
Do you still have to pay to support all those fat, lazy Bishops in the House of Lords?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 12:55 pm
Setanta wrote:
Do you still have to pay to support all those fat, lazy Bishops in the House of Lords?

26 bishops and archbishops - total number of all peers in the Lords is 728.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 01:02 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Do you still have to pay to support all those fat, lazy Bishops in the House of Lords?

26 bishops and archbishops - total number of all peers in the Lords is 728.
Well they are not all fat, and some of them work quite hard (a relative term) but they are all Bishops, and that makes me very angry indeed. I only ever knew one Bishop...of Middlesex no quips please....he was a really nice bloke actually. Died last year.
0 Replies
 
 

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