What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

@Francis,

I remember a time when I was in Munich's Marianplatz and Helmut Kohl was speaking in his husky voice to the huge crowd. It must've been in the early 90s, but that was an experience that will stay with me for a very long time (it already has).

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@Foxfyre,

It would give an outcry when Arnold said hew as German - by Germans as well as Austrians.

Well, Hitler referred to himself as Austrian as long as he was an Austrian. And then he was stateless and cautiously didn't refer to his own citizenship at all.

The reference to Beethoven is a German<>Austrian joke.
However, he was a proud Viennese - as well as Mozart spoke in his letters about "we Germans".

However, there were a lot more German national states at Mozart's and Beethoven's time, but only a single one when Hitler was born. As there was only one Austria when he was born.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Did Hitler refer to himself as an Austrian? He was born there but did he emphasize that when he was campaigning for the German people to adore him?

I don't know for sure, but I doubt it very much. Hitler felt an allegiance to Germany long before he became a politician. It goes back at least to World War I, when he made a point of serving in the army of Bavaria, not Austria-Hungary. From Hitler's point of view, there should never have been a border between Germany and the German-speaking part of Austria-Hungary. So I would expect him to downplay the difference.

Foxfyre wrote:

Did Beethoven refer to himself as an Austrian? He studied there but did he refer to himself as Austrian and not German?

No. Always as a German.

Foxfyre wrote:

Does Ah-nold think of himself as a German? Or a Californian? Or American citizen?

Judging by his autobiography, he considered himself an American first. If you specifically asked him about his heritage, he would probably say he's Austrian. I would be surprised if Schwarzenegger ever referred to himself as a German.

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@Francis,

Francis wrote:

.............
I heard it in Germany after Helmut Schmidt was no more Bundeskanzler. At the time, obviously, the joke was aimed at him and not at the other Helmut (Kohl).

Sadly, Francis, you attribute to me a finesse d'esprit not generally granted to folks lacking the great good fortune of being born French - so yes, I did take your comment literally. There's no "obviously" to the plodders among us Smile

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre - Arnold doesn't refer to himself as German because he's Austrian. Btw, does everyone here know the joke about the man applying for a passport in St Petersburg?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

The reference to Beethoven is a German<>Austrian joke.
However, he was a proud Viennese - as well as Mozart spoke in his letters about "we Germans".

I've just scanned through various letters written by Beethoven: he writes, indeed, quite often that he's a "Viennese" citizen. When using the term "fellow countryman" it's different: seems that everyone who likes (his) music is a fellow countryman. As "nationality", he says that he's a 'Rhineland German' ("Rheinländer").

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@Walter Hinteler,

Caution, Walter - Francis is reading this, and he knows perfectly well that "Rheinländer" could plausibly be interpreted to mean Beethoven really thought of himself as French, considering how long the place was occupied by Napoleon's armies Smile

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Hitler felt an allegiance to Germany long before he became a politician. It goes back at least to World War I, when he made a point of serving in the army of Bavaria, not Austria-Hungary. From Hitler's point of view, there should never have been a border between Germany and the German-speaking part of Austria-Hungary.

Well, one even important reason for his antipathy towards Austria-Hungaria is that he they send him three times (in 1909, for joining in 1910) a draft-roll for the Austrian-Hungarian army which he didn't follow.

When he registered 1913 in Munich, he told the registration ofice that he was sateless - fearing that they might discover that he was a "Stellungsflüchtling" (someone who didn't follow the army's call).

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@Thomas,

Yes, re Arnold, I meant to say Austrian and not German. My bad.

My grandmother, born in Austria, grew up on a farm near Munich. They immigrated to the USA prior to WWI, and according to family lore considered themselves German (or Bavarian) until stuff started turning ugly there politically and then quietly reidentified themselves as Austrian. She died long before I was born and when my mother was very young, so we don't really know how she felt about America.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Oh! He was a draft dodger like Dick Cheney? I didn't know that part about him.

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@Setanta,

I'm just noticing that Setanta scooped me on Hitler and Beethoven. Good job, Setanta!

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

My grandmother, born in Austria, grew up on a farm near Munich. They immigrated to the USA prior to WWI, and according to family lore considered themselves German (or Bavarian) until stuff started turning ugly there politically and then quietly reidentified themselves as Austrian.

Any idea what was meant by "stuff started turning ugly there politically", before WWI? Because Bavaria became part of Germany in 1871?

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@Walter Hinteler,

Events leading up to WWI and WWII and the wars themselves were pretty ugly politically Walter.

And yes. My grandmother considered herself Bavarian or German because that is where she grew up. After things turned ugly in Germany however, she apparently preferred to refer to herself as Austrian as Austria was where she was born. I didn't know her so I don't presume to know her motives.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

Events leading up to WWI and WWII and the wars themselves were pretty ugly politically Walter.

I was only asking because you wrote that she/they emigrated before WWI.
(Bavaria and most other parts of Germany actually weren't "pretty ugly poltically" before 1914 ... if you weren't a leftist that is.)

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Events leading up to WWI and WWII and the wars themselves were pretty ugly politically Walter.

I was only asking because you wrote that she/they emigrated before WWI.
(Bavaria and most other parts of Germany actually weren't "pretty ugly poltically" before 1914 ... if you weren't a leftist that is.)

We're discussing two different things again Walter. They immigrated to the USA well before 1914. My mother was born in 1905 in Texas.

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@Foxfyre,

My bad, sorry. I didn't really notice that (important) main part of your response.

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@Thomas,

Thomas - is the term used by Walter "Stellungsflüchtling" closer in meaning to "Wehrdienstverweigerer" (draft dodger) or to "Fahnenflüchtiger" (deserter)? Getting deferments - however unjustified in your opinion - from military service doesn't quite rise to the level of any of the last 2 terms, and perhaps not even of the first one - not, mind, that I'm any fan of Cheney's or any of the neocons.

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@High Seas,

"Stellungsbefehl" is an Austrian-German and older German expression (in today's German it would be "Einberufung"). And actually doesn't mean both your proposals but something like "order for draft/conscription".
"Flüchtling" ('refuge') here means that he didn't follow the order, it's a leagl term from the Austrian criminal code. [Three times - it's totally unclear why he wasn't got by the police since he was registered in Vienna.]

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@Walter Hinteler,

From the Austrian-Hungarian Military Service Law (Wehrgesetz)

Quote:

II. Wehrpflicht und Dienstpflicht

Die Wehrpflicht ist eine allgemeine und muss von jedem wehrpflichtigen Staatsbürger persönlich erfüllt werden. Wer zur persönlichen Erfüllung seiner Wehrpflicht nicht die physische Eignung besitzt, ist zur Zahlung einer entsprechenden Steuer - Militärtaxe - verpflichtet.

Die Wehrpflicht umfasst:

a) die Stellungspflicht - Verpflichtung behufs Entscheidung über die Wehrfähigkeit vor einer
Stellungskommission zu erscheinen; Die Stellungspflicht dauert 3 Jahre - beginnend mit
1. Jänner jenes Kalenderjahres, in welchem der Wehrpflichtige das 21. Lebensjahr
vollendet und endet bei regelmäßiger Erfüllung derselben mit 31. Dezember jenes Jahres,
in dem er das 23. Lebensjahr vollstreckt;

b) die Dienstpflicht - Pflicht zum Militärdienste im gemeinsamen Heere oder Kriegsmarine
oder in der Landwehr (in Bosnien-Herzegovina überdies in der 2. und 3. Reserve);

c) die Landsturmpflicht - der selben unterliegen alle wehrfähigen Staatsbürger vom vollendeten
19. bis 42. Lebensjahre, die weder dem gemeinsamen Heere, Kriegsmarine, noch der
Landwehr angehören. In Bosnien-Herzegovina tritt an Stelle der Landsturmpflicht die Dienst-
pflicht in der 2. und 3. Reserve.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Aaaargh! I knew I should know better than to question Walter's legal-historical information. Btw, Einberufung is mobilisation - I think. Thank you all the same, Walter, your thorough research is as always greatly appreciated Smile

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What produces RUTHLESS DICTATORS?

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