pardonable sin

For all we know Hitler is in Heaven with Mother Theresa. It depends on whether he did the things he did with the intent of causing pain or did he hinestly believe he was doing the right thing.

And what if it turned out Mother Theresa did her thing just to get a nice spot in Heaven? In that case she may have gotten shipped downstairs to old Scratch.


You know, I figure Heaven is a rather big place and there are quite a few folks who end up there who you'd never expect to see and a few you'd figure to be there who just aren't...as the sayings go, God moves/works in mysterious ways.
Guess I'll find out what happens when (and if) I die.

Speaking of Mother Theresa, I am very disappointed in her, and don't think that she was the "saint" that she was made out to be.

One day I read a story about her, that was written after a reporter interviewed her. He brought up the point, that in the poverty stricken areas where she worked, one of the immense problems were that people were having many children, whom they could not afford to raise properly. The reporter asked whether she could use her influence to bring birth control into those communities, thereby relieving some of the poverty.

Her answer floored me. She said that she was spreading the word of God, and was not a social worker. Apparently, she was not concerned enough about the hideous conditions with which these people had to live, so long as they prayed to her God. It was such a simple solution. She had the influence, and the ability to do a lot of good for the people with whom she worked. She chose to place dogma over good common sense.

As far as I was concerned, at that moment, she completely lost her credibility with me.

Re: pardonable sin

But yet, surely, somehow, there is a less-than-harmonious chord chiming within your being at such an idea?

From my own perspective, arrived at from both research and insight--considering Constantine as the true founder of what we presently refer to 'christianity'--I think he founded it with absolutely no relevant faith in it's usefulness on a private and inner level but was totally interested in the benefits to his own monstrous task of administering the huge Roman Empire...

IOW, I think he made it up and knew he made it up--and why. He fooled the world yet not himself.

YET, even so, he, himself, engaged in activities associated with 'death bed conversions.'

WTF?

Was he thinking 'I better just cover all the bases, eliminate any surprises?'
Or was it more like he became a victim of his own crime, with an irony that makes even such a heinous act as global deception against souls (not people) seem almost poetically beautiful?


'Heaven' is a tree house club which is by invitation only.
I threw mine away.

Or else it is the sky--
I see no constellation named Mother Teresa or any new ones at all...


Most 'sins' are determined by human morality--'sin' is actually a state of mind, rather than an act of transgressing laws that are now defunct. The state of mind, when resolved, eliminates the need for laws.


Judas served an important and necessary purpose. He actually served God by doing what he did. Hitler most likely did, too. And whomever else is so quickly assigned to hell by the churchians.

Satan is not the evil in this world--his paycheck is signed by God, just as surely as all the other angels.

Man is the evil, and delusion is the tool. We cannot just say a few words, perform a few mindless rites prescribed by someone wearing an odd frock and collar and be 'converted.'

'The law of the LORD is perfect and converts the soul.'

True conversion is dependent upon the idea of 'transformation.' It is metamorphosis. Death bed conversions are the ultimate end to an illusion and serve no purpose except to negate any progress that might have been made in the lifetime which they usher out with their ambience of darkness and dirges.

Gathering souls for the "Master" so to speak. Almost sounds like some kind of bad grade b "Omen" movie.

phoenix, interesting view on Mother Theresa; thanks.

since the Fuhrer was mentioned, i have a question for Christians. what if he was insane? does God condemn the insane to eternal punishment even if insanity prevents them from converting or repenting?

Since djjd62 asked that free will not be mentioned in this thread I can't address everything asked.

I do believe this though. If one were to use the "I can do whatever I want and just convert on my deathbed and be ok" theory, I think they are going to be in for a rude awakening.

Being given grace for our sins does not give us license to commit sins. When we do "convert" it must be real.

i understand the problem with free will, but in the case of judas it doesn't apply, jesus knows somebody will betray him, if the whole thing is to play out as god wants it to judas can't just all of a sudden say, "you know what, i'm not gonna lead them to jesus screw them", if that happens, no trial, no crucifixtion, no ressurection, no saving everybody's souls, 2000 some odd years of christianity don't happen and then where are we

You know what djjd62? Judas could have done that. He had the free will to do that. Fact is, he didn't do it. He used his free will. Jesus knew that he would use it.

MA, these verses from Romans 9 seem to contradict free will in some cases:

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Yitwail,

Perhaps you should read a bit early in Chapter 9 of Romans. It is speaking of God's soverignty. It does not say man does not have free will.

God very well could have made all of us like little puppets to do nothing but walk around and do only good and everyone accept that He is God. Why do you think it is that He didn't do that?

sense of humour would be my guess.

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

would be my guess. anyway, it's not a question of whether man has free will, but a particular man having free will when God or Jesus said the man would do something like betray Jesus or deny Jesus thrice before the cock crow.

Jesus told Peter that he would deny Christ three times before the cock crowed. Peter denied that he would do it. Well, he did it. That was Peter making the choice to do the denying. Jesus just knew he would do it.

as a non-believer, it seems to me that either Jesus guessed correctly, or Peter had to deny because Jesus knew what would happen; it's either a guess or a prophecy, but not both.

It was a prophecy yitwail. Honest.

The 4 gospels were written 40 to 70 years after Jesus' death. Prophecy means nothing when everything is written well after the event.

I submit that when all is said and done we will be as surprised by the one who rubs our elbow as by the one we cannot find.

If we are conscious, that is

Neo,

I, myself, think there are going to be more surprised than not. :wink:

I was told that God will not condem one who is not in their right mind.

Puttin' my 2 cents worth in.

Wanda