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Liberal Hypocrisy about Intelligent Design

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 01:12 pm
parados,

I posted this earlier and did not see a response from you. I did change one word (bolded). It said infallible and should have said fallible.

Quote:
But parados, you have said that scientists are fallible because they are men. So, how can you be absolutely sure that the theories presented have flaws? Couldn't the flaw be in the scientists' pointing?


parados Wrote:

Quote:
You just won the booby prize Momma because you refuse to admit that you are fallible. Such arrogance can only lead you to be wrong. It is the same with science as it is with religion. Belief that you are absolutely correct about something means you will stop searching for the answers that would make it believable or not.


I just caught this post. Bobby prize? I have never said in any way that I am not fallible. What I said I believe is the Word of God is infallible. I believe that man has distorted the intended message, yes, but God has not changed nor has His message.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 01:31 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
parados,

I posted this earlier and did not see a response from you. I did change one word (bolded). It said infallible and should have said fallible.

Quote:
But parados, you have said that scientists are fallible because they are men. So, how can you be absolutely sure that the theories presented have flaws? Couldn't the flaw be in the scientists' pointing?


It is the fallibility that makes science work. Any theory MUST be duplicatable by anyone else even if they are skeptical of it. One person is fallible but if 3000 skeptics also get the same result then it has merit because people that TRIED to make it not work also got the same result. Science is based on skepticism. Everyone has their own ideas and they have to be able to prove it to others. Theories are the result of years of people trying to show they are not valid. They don't become scientific theories until they have been tested. Before that they are simply an hypothesis. A theory is still not a law in science. The term theory means that there is still the possibility that new science can change it.

This from an explanation of the scientific method...
Quote:
Theories are not easily discarded; new discoveries are first assumed to fit into the existing theoretical framework. It is only when, after repeated experimental tests, the new phenomenon cannot be accommodated that scientists seriously question the theory and attempt to modify it. The validity that we attach to scientific theories as representing realities of the physical world is to be contrasted with the facile invalidation implied by the expression, "It's only a theory." For example, it is unlikely that a person will step off a tall building on the assumption that they will not fall, because "Gravity is only a theory."


This is the difference between philosophy and science. Philosophy doesn't have to prove their theories to skeptics because the theories are basically unprovable.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 01:38 pm
Momma Angel may not be trying to move science out of the schools, but my remarks are really aimed at ID believers in general. That is where I am in the main correct.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 01:39 pm
parados,

Your last statement there is not entirely true. I see you did say basically unprovable though. There are many that believe their experiences have proved the existence of God, but it is not accepted by others.

You seem to have a different view of science than many I have come across on these threads. Most seem to think that science is pretty infallible.

Ok, try this question. Given your perception of science in your first paragraph, why would it be so hard to understand how those that believe in God and that God is infallible can rely on that fact alone? It seems that you are proving my point of science's fallibility. Why is it so hard for some to understand that the concept of God pretty much rules out His infallibility? Couldn't this be considered a theory also?

But edgar, that is where I disagree with you. You say you know you are correct? Unless you ask every Christian in the Unites States about this, you cannot know this is the truth.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 01:40 pm
Momma Angel wrote:

parados Wrote:

Quote:
You just won the booby prize Momma because you refuse to admit that you are fallible. Such arrogance can only lead you to be wrong. It is the same with science as it is with religion. Belief that you are absolutely correct about something means you will stop searching for the answers that would make it believable or not.


I just caught this post. Bobby prize? I have never said in any way that I am not fallible. What I said I believe is the Word of God is infallible. I believe that man has distorted the intended message, yes, but God has not changed nor has His message.


This proves my point precisely Momma. You admit you are fallible but you declare that God is infallible. Since you are fallible you are likely to be wrong about God. You can't prove the infallibility of God with any experiment that any other person can duplicate. I can just as easily declare that God is fallible and my view would carry as much weight as yours does. Neither of us can prove our point to skeptics.

Science is different. It has a method that allows the skeptics to test hypothesis and theories. Think of it as a recipe for cookies. I can claim I know how to make chocolate chip cookies. I have a recipe to make them. Anyone, even those that don't believe in chocolate chip cookies can follow my recipe exactly and they will get the same result I did.

Now we can compare that to changing water into wine. I can claim it is possible to do it. But I can't provide any recipe to skeptics that would allow them to duplicate what I claim can be done. The skeptics win in the case of science when a claim can't be duplicted.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 01:49 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
parados,

Your last statement there is not entirely true. I see you did say basically unprovable though. There are many that believe their experiences have proved the existence of God, but it is not accepted by others.



A belief is not a proof. If it can't be shown to others it has no validity in science.

Yes people can believe that God has shown himself to them in some ways. People can also believe that they have voices in their heads. There are many different levels of belief. Some are good. Some we consider to be abnormal. Science doesn't rely on belief. It relies on provability and duplication. Someone can't prove to others that God spoke to them anymore than someone can prove that people live in their head and talk to them. It doesn't make religion bad. It only means that it isn't provable under the rules of science.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 01:55 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
You seem to have a different view of science than many I have come across on these threads. Most seem to think that science is pretty infallible.

I don't know that this is true. If it is, this view is not shared by any meaningful number of scientists or philosophers of science. Almost all of them hold views similar to parados'. The advantage of science over religion is that it provides a method of improving our understanding which, unlike religion, tests whether a new hypothesis is actually an improvement.

Quantum mechanics, for example, is a scientific theory, and it's arguably as esotherical and "out there" as the immaculate conception. But if it had been wrong, your computer couldn't work on the basis of its transistors, nuclear power plants couldn't produce electricity and the PET scan in your hospital couldn't possibly work either. Thus, the demonstrable fact that all these things do work is overwhelming evidence that quantum phyiscs is a correct scientific theory.

There is no way one could say the same of hypothesis like "Maria remained a virgin after conceiving Jesus" and "God is infallible". They might be false, they might be true. But there is no way to test it, and we know from experience that stories are usually fictional if their truth cannot be tested and they sound good enough to be retold just because they're good stories. On that basis, the case for skepticism about religious doctrins is much stronger than the case for skepticism about tried and tested scientific theories. Quantum physics is such a theory. And so is evolution.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:00 pm
Momma Angel wrote:

Ok, try this question. Given your perception of science in your first paragraph, why would it be so hard to understand how those that believe in God and that God is infallible can rely on that fact alone? It seems that you are proving my point of science's fallibility. Why is it so hard for some to understand that the concept of God pretty much rules out His infallibility? Couldn't this be considered a theory also?

.


Actually, it isn't a theory. You are using the word theory different than how it is used in science. Go back and read my quote from the scientific method. Theories only result from years of testing by OTHERS who are skeptical.

Your question is circular in its logic. It would be instantly discarded in science. It is a logical falacy. You can't prove your assumption by using the conclusion based on your assumption.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:04 pm
Thomas wrote:


Quantum mechanics, for example, is a scientific theory, and it's arguably as esotherical and "out there" as the immaculate conception. But if it had been wrong, your computer couldn't work on the basis of its transistors, nuclear power plants couldn't produce electricity and the PET scan in your hospital couldn't possibly work either. Thus, the demonstrable fact that all these things do work is overwhelming evidence that quantum phyiscs is a correct scientific theory.


None of these machines relies on quantum mechanics in order to work any more than falling apples relied upon Newton's gravity. I get your point. I only bring it up because I am maybe more skeptical than most about quantum theory. Then again, I am not a physicist.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:09 pm
Thomas

Wait...Okay, NOW I see your point.
(disregard previous echi post) Embarrassed
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:29 pm
parados Wrote:

Quote:
Yes people can believe that God has shown himself to them in some ways. People can also believe that they have voices in their heads. There are many different levels of belief. Some are good. Some we consider to be abnormal. Science doesn't rely on belief. It relies on provability and duplication. Someone can't prove to others that God spoke to them anymore than someone can prove that people live in their head and talk to them. It doesn't make religion bad. It only means that it isn't provable under the rules of science.


Again, but you have stated science is fallible so how can you make a statement it is not proven under the rules of science if science is fallible? If science is fallible, the rules can also be fallible?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:33 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
If science is fallible, the rules can also be fallible?

They are fallible. But they have a track record, and their track record of failure has been much, much less bad than that of religious efforts to explain the world.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:36 pm
Thomas,

Thank you so much. Ok, the difference to me is this, science is of man. Faith is of God. So, in some respects it's apples and oranges. I am just glad I have finally run into some that actually will admit science is fallible.

So, perhaps this puts us all a little closer to the truth afterall?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:43 pm
I said PEOPLE are fallible... (That does not equate to science is fallible.)

That is why in science you don't rely on a single individual or a group that all agree to decide what is right. You build in a process that fights the fallibility. You set up a process that allows skeptics to point out the fallibility when there are errors. Then when the skeptics can no longer find any errors do you make it into a theory.

Is the process perfect? Perhaps not, but it is better than NO PROCESS at all which is what you are advocating.

That is the huge difference between science and religion. Science demands that people disagree and try to find errors in each other's work. Religions can't survive with that kind of dissension. They splinter rather than using the disagreement to come to an agreement.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:45 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Ok, the difference to me is this, science is of man. Faith is of God.

If you assume, just for the sake of discussion, that this proposition is wrong, and that faith is of man too. How would you know?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:50 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Thomas,

Thank you so much. Ok, the difference to me is this, science is of man. Faith is of God. So, in some respects it's apples and oranges. I am just glad I have finally run into some that actually will admit science is fallible.

So, perhaps this puts us all a little closer to the truth afterall?


Every scientist will tell you that science isn't perfect. If science was perfect then there would be no peer review. People do experiments, they create an hypothesis, then it is tested by thousands or millions of others to see if it is valid or not. Only after all of those tests is it put forward as a valid explanation accepted by everyone.



Faith is of God? Such a statement implies that man has nothing to do with faith since it is only God. I disagree. Faith is very much of man. Only man needs faith. God doesn't.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:53 pm
Thomas,

I understand what you are saying but I do not believe faith is of man.

parados,

If it is of man, then it will always have the possibility of being fallible. Some believe this of God and some do not. I do not believe this is something that will be ever 100% resolved in the minds of mankind.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 02:59 pm
Momma Angel wrote:

If it is of man, then it will always have the possibility of being fallible. Some believe this of God and some do not. I do not believe this is something that will be ever 100% resolved in the minds of mankind.

Not unless we can agree on what we mean by "God".
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 03:01 pm
echi,

Yes, you are right there. And I don't think that is likely to happen.
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echi
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Dec, 2005 03:02 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
echi,

Yes, you are right there. And I don't think that is likely to happen.

Maybe, maybe not, but at least it would be a start.
0 Replies
 
 

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