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norse mythology

 
 
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 05:49 am
Question Hi everybody, in norse mythology , what is the name of the powerful dwarf who, to satisfy his own greed, turns himself into a dragon in order to steal a hoard of gold?
I have two answers i think may be right, but am not sure which one to go for.
I would like to see if anybody comes up with one of these, without knowing what i have, if you get my drift!!!
Thanks for any help you can give me Smile
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 3,014 • Replies: 33
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 06:13 am
If you wanted to make this a riddle, perhaps you ought to have posted it in the word games forum. At all events, personally lacking an interest in the game, i will simply point out that the story to which you refer is, first, not necessarily to be described as a story particular to Norse mythology, and, second, that if in fact it is, it would be found in Snorri Sturleson--although i don't recall it, which is why i doubt that it is particular to Norse mythology.

Perhaps i'm wrong, and someone will come by to demonstrate as much.
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justaclue
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 06:21 am
This is certainly a serious question, and definately relates to norse mythology, but i may now also put this on the quizzes section!
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Setanta
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 06:41 am
Well, Boss, it was not intended, as you suggest in the word games forum, as a rebuff. I strongly suspect that this passage to which you refer arises in Teutonic mythology, and is not particular to Norse mythology, as i don't recall its appearance in Sturleson. I believe i am correct in stating that Sturleson is the oldest, comprehensive source for purely Norse mythology.

As i also noted, i could be wrong, and have little doubt that someone will show up to assert as much, whether or not that can be demonstrated. Perhpas our astute member from Norway, Einjhar, will arrive.
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justaclue
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 07:03 am
Ok thanks for that, lets hope someone out there can help me!!
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 07:07 am
justaclue - do you think he was killed while a dragon?
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justaclue
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 07:11 am
I wish i knew!!!
I just have the question to answer as i have typed it in my original question, so i can't be of any more help to you.
I am still looking to try and clarify which of my two answers may be right, but just not getting anywhere!
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 07:14 am
Have you googled it?

~~~~~~~~~

I'm quite a fan of the minnesanger, though I don't know all the stories as well.

~~~~~~~~~

This is interesting and may help you

http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=baldwin&book=siegfried&story=_front
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justaclue
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 07:20 am
Yes i have googled it to the best of my ability, and that is why i have ended up with two answers, which seem to provide the same answer if you get my drift, about the information in the question.
Have tried the site you suggested but won't let me open it to get any information. But thanks anyway!!
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 07:37 am
Try to get at the Sturleson.
I'm quite sure your answer is there.

I'd rather try to help you find it, than just hand it over.

Here's another clue for justaclue.


<is this a Lord of the Rings-related question, as many think the Rings books are based, at least in part, on the Sturleson?>
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ul
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 07:45 am
I can't remember a dwarf who turned himself into a dragon to guard a treasure.
There is Fafnir who turned himself into a dragon and was later killed by Sigrud. But he was a giant, as far as I remember.
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justaclue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 07:47 am
Yes thanks again, i do like to look for answers myself, but not always as simple as they seem. Forgive my ignorance but what is Sturleson, is it a website, and if so can you tell me the address, or whatever i need to use it. Thanks again
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justaclue
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 07:49 am
Thanks Ul, but in the question i did say, a dwarf who turns himself into a dragon to STEAL a hoard of gold!!
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 08:06 am
Hi justaclue.

<I've been having fun debating this with Setanta here :wink: >

Quote:
The Eddas and Sagas of Iceland: 9th - 13th century AD

Iceland provides the fullest surviving record of Germanic mythology, legend and history. The earliest examples are found in a manuscript written in the 13th century, known as the Elder Edda (or sometimes Poetic Edda), which is preserved in the Royal Library in Copenhagen.

The opening poem in the Elder Edda (entitled Völuspá) recounts Norse mythology, from the creation onwards. Though composed in Iceland, probably in the 10th century, the material is based on earlier sources deriving from Norway and possibly from Norse settlements in Britain.

The second half of the Elder Edda goes back even further, in an oral tradition reaching to the 5th and 6th century. Much of the material derives from the historical struggle in the 5th century between the invading Huns and the royal house of Burgundy. The emphasis is on a blighted quadrangle of love between Siguror (a valiant hero), Brynhildr (a warrior woman living in a castle surrounded by flames, to whom Siguror is betrothed) and a Burgundian brother and sister, of the royal family, who deceive our hero and heroine.

This favourite Norse story is retold in the Nibelungenlied, which makes Siegfried and Brunhild (their German names) the most famous ill-starred lovers in Germanic legend.

The Younger Edda (also known as the Prose Edda) is written much later, in the early 13th century, by a single author - the Icelandic chieftain Snorri Sturluson. Composed as an aid to the appreciation of Icelandic poetry, its account of metric systems and of the mythology behind Norse legend has been of great subsequent value.

Snorri is also the author of the Heimskringla, an account of the kings of Norway from mythological beginnings down to the time of his own childhood. As such, it is just one of the many dramatic medieval accounts of Norse legend and history which are Iceland's great contribution to literature (giving the word saga, old Norse for 'story', to many other languages).


history of literature link

Quote:
The Nibelungenlied: 12th century AD

The shared memories of the Nordic people, first written down in Iceland, have been recited and sung wherever Germanic tribes have settled - including the central lands of Germany itself. In the southeast of this region, in modern Austria, the legends about the fall of Burgundy to the Huns achieve their fullest and most influential expression in a version of the late 12th century.

This is the great German epic poem known as the Nibelungenlied ('Song of the Nibelungs').

The first half of the Nibelungenlied is essentially the story written down two centuries earlier in Iceland's Elder Edda, involving Siegfried and Brunhild as tragic hero and heroine. Additional elements, recorded also in the Icelandic Völsunga Saga, involve the dragon Fafnir, guardian of a golden treasure and a magic ring, and the eventual sinking of the treasure in the Rhine.

The Nibelungenlied, rich in detail and incident, has been profoundly influential - and has been given added fame in Wagner's Ring. Although later than courtly epics such as the Chanson de Roland, the poem retains the darkness and violence of its Germanic tribal origins.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 08:06 am
This is just an off-the-toppathuh-head guess, but seems to me Andvari might fill the bill. The "turned into a dragon" part sorta baffles me though; the dwarf Andvari, guardian of a magical gold ring, took the form of a fish, a pike, actually. Andvari didn't steal the ring, it was given him for safekeeping by the Æsir at the beginning of the world. It was stolen from him (at the god Loki's urging) by the dwarf Fafnir, who took the form of a dragon. Fafnir was killed by Sigurd, weilding the sword Gram, purpose-forged for the task by the dwarf Regin (who had his own ulterior motives involving revenge and Fafnir's gold, but nemmind)

The story is the root of Wagner's Ring Cycle, and also of Tolkein's Trilogy of the Rings.

Dunno if thats what you're looking for, but off-thetoppathuh-head, that's the best I can do.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 08:09 am
http://normannii.org/guilds_lore/lore/volsunga/volsunga18.htm

^^^ the verses involving Fafnir

<marvellous if you ever are able to see a performance of this by a minnesanger recreation>

http://normannii.org/guilds_lore/lore/volsunga/volsunga.htm
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justaclue
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 10:30 am
It has been suggested from another source IVALDI but again i can't tie all the facts into the question, does it mean anything to you and can you help on this?? thanks
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Asherman
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 10:40 am
My initial reaction was also Fafnir though it's not a complete and perfect fit. I would have to go downstairs to the library to check, but I believe that the Fafnir story is totally Teutonic and does not appear in the Norse Cycles. Sturleson was a late 19th century scholar whose work with Norse myths, sagas, etc. remains one of the first and best places one looks when researching Norse tales. If memory serves the complete Sturleson runs to 8 vol.
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justaclue
 
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Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 10:49 am
Right, looking forward to your next message, i believe it can also be spelt IVALDE
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Dec, 2005 10:49 am
Asherman already mentioned it by a sdeline: are you sure it's Norse and not some story from some other Germanic tribes?
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