Reconciling faith and science

If by "special case" you mean "having the capacity to monumentally screw things up and using that capacity to the fullest", then, yes, we are a "special case".

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username wrote:

If by "special case" you mean "having the capacity to monumentally screw things up and using that capacity to the fullest", then, yes, we are a "special case".

It could mean the reverse as well no? Having the capacity to monumentally alter the paths by which we find ourselves and decide that we are indeed in need of seeing the errors of our ways and changing them. No?(much like Repentance)
These are the fruits of evil indeed. Fruits of evil are death and destruction.

What would it take?

Look at mankind and ask if we are good stewards of this planet and good neighbors to one another as we should be?

Can't be when we care and live only unto and for ourselves. I serve myself and self alone.......indeed. This is the nature of evil.

i hope fresco responds to my previous post.hmm

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Theoretically possible--very little evidence to date that it is possible in actuality. And attributing us "dominion" is a bit like saying a chainsaw has dominion over a tree. And attributing any of that to the action of a god is not at all convincing.

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username wrote:

Theoretically possible--very little evidence to date that it is possible in actuality. And attributing us "dominion" is a bit like saying a chainsaw has dominion over a tree. And attributing any of that to the action of a god is not at all convincing.

The chainsaw can only have dominion over a tree if a higher authority (power) gives it authority over the tree! :wink:

Higher authority still retains power over chainsaw and can deny chainsaw power at any time!

And will

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that's not the relevant aspect of the simile.

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username wrote:

that's not the relevant aspect of the simile.

What is relevant to you? I believe it is far more relevant than what first appears.

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What would the process look like this far unassisted. Evolution that is?

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Like the world around us, amigo.

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username wrote:

Like the world around us, amigo.

Then take back the authority you bestowed to the chainsaw! It was your authority to begin with.....or was it? :wink:

If the authority man has is from man then man will do as man desires.

If the authority that man has came from another....it would be wise to consider the higher authority's will......above all!

If the chainsaw is broken and you want to cut the tree down....will you abandon your task of cutting the tree? lol

regarding the world:

"the meek shall inherit the earth" cause the meek are the only ones who can be trusted to care for it

The meek do not question the existence of a power above them and will not question that power's (authority's) will!

That authority from which all authority is derived ......is God!

You could dump the chainsaw and get an axe!

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fresco wrote:

Sorry no....and we invented logic !

Man invented logic? Just as you say man invented God? When was logic invented? By whom?

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Bartikus,

The same "logic" you use to argue for a superior being can equally be used to show that that being has criminal tendencies. The point is that both arguments need to assume "existence" of such an entity. This is the fallacy of circular reasoning.

The more important point is that "logic" itself is synthetic. It is based on static set theory which (a) may not be applicable the dynamics of life processes and (b) cannot of itself establish "truth" of assumed axioms.

Once again I notice you go for the "word magic" of the biblical one-liner. In the old testament there are texts which instruct you how to make burnt offering sacrifices, or whether you are allowed at the graveside of your relative depending on which tribe you belong to. You should seriously consider whether to select from this hotchpotch of regulations and aphorisms designed by the manipulators of the feeble-brained is your ticket to debating oblivion.

Finally, the position of assuming that "man has special status" is no different to "Christians have special status" or any other tribal rallying cry. In cosmological terms we are one of countless species living on one rock rotating round one sun in a universe of stars as numerous as all the grains of sand on earth. The mental acrobatics in claiming "special status" from that perspective can only be induced by a powerful hallucinogen or as Dawkins has suggested, a mental virus.

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fresco wrote:

Bartikus,

The same "logic" you use to argue for a superior being can equally be used to show that that being has criminal tendencies. The point is that both arguments need to assume "existence" of such an entity. This is the fallacy of circular reasoning.

The more important point is that "logic" itself is synthetic. It is based on static set theory which (a) may not be applicable the dynamics of life processes and (b) cannot of itself establish "truth" of assumed axioms.

Once again I notice you go for the "word magic" of the biblical one-liner. In the old testament there are texts which instruct you how to make burnt offering sacrifices, or whether you are allowed at the graveside of your relative depending on which tribe you belong to. You should seriously consider whether to select from this hotchpotch of regulations and aphorisms designed by the manipulators of the feeble-brained is your ticket to debating oblivion.

Finally, the position of assuming that "man has special status" is no different to "Christians have special status" or any other tribal rallying cry. In cosmological terms we are one of countless species living on one rock rotating round one sun in a universe of stars as numerous as all the grains of sand on earth. The mental acrobatics in claiming "special status" from that perspective can only be induced by a powerful hallucinogen or as Dawkins has suggested, a mental virus.

We can rely on one invention but not another? Ok which form of logic do you suggest we use? lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

Let me guess...you want to apply quantum logic? No? lol

You keep calling it word magic....does that make it so? Do you deny the power of words?

feeble brained? Do you know why according to the sciences personal attacks are done? Well....it says more about you than myself. lol

Dawkins is not the final.....or even only authority! Is he in your mind?

If so I would say that Dawkins may have some "word magic" going on himself.

Powerful his words are.....intoxicating...

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Bartikus,

No, we can rely on nothing absolutely except perhaps the certainty of our own death.....and that is where the "faith fairy" makes things O.K by giving absolution to the faithful !

"Fuzzy Logic" has a greater range of application than binary logic, but neither can evaluate axioms. We are ultimately drawn to the conclusion that "truth is what works" and "what works is negotiable".( Pontius Pilate was on the right track whan he asked "what is truth ?" but he got the wrong answer ! Smile

)

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Bartikus,

I make no personal attacks. If you take my evaluation of the bible to be such an attack thats your problem...and such a response merely underscores the weakness of the case for "faith".

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fresco wrote:

Bartikus,

No, we can rely on nothing absolutely except perhaps the certainty of our own death.....and that is where the "faith fairy" makes things O.K by giving absolution to the faithful !

"Fuzzy Logic" has a greater range of application than binary logic, but neither can evaluate axioms. We are ultimately drawn to the conclusion that "truth is what works" and "what works is negotiable".( Pontius Pilate was on the right track whan he asked "what is truth ?" but he got the wrong answer ! )

No he did'nt.

"You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

"What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him. "" (John 18:33-38)

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." Jesus said he was the truth and the truth will set you free.

When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

This blood can only be applied those who believe in him. He died by choice, for the sake of those who would believe in him and in his words.

Just as by choice...men begin to trust in him or reject him.

God can only trust those ...with the future.....who trust him.

What is it do you think you have to lose in this world? What is it that you think you have to gain from this world? I tell you the truth.

nothing.

What is to be had...if not had...forever?

If anything (ideas, knowledge, wealth) is here today and gone tomorrow in the cosmological perspective as you allude to. Has it really ever been?

in a blink of an eye......gone

Not ideas that endure forever....not knowlege that endures forever....not treasure that endure forever!

Such things could only come from an eternal source. Without that....what is there?........and for how long?
(You might want to avoid the cosmological perspective at this point to make it easier to bear or .....know the truth!)

You hold tight to the things that are temporary...(that will be gone)...so much so.....you fail to take hold of the eternal!

Who has the mental virus?

Just think about it.

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fresco wrote:

Bartikus,

I make no personal attacks. If you take my evaluation of the bible to be such an attack thats your problem...and such a response merely underscores the weakness of the case for "faith".

You should seriously consider whether to select from this hotchpotch of regulations and aphorisms designed by the manipulators of the feeble-brained is your ticket to debating oblivion.

I don't blame you for not wanting to debate the logic of a creator. I could use far more measurements that show man's special status than you could about any other single life form on earth!

The measurements by the way were what you first chose to arrive at the conclusion that a belief in a God that gave us dominion on this planet.....was illogical! This was an affirmative statement about what my beliefs are. My beliefs are an hallucinogen and as mentioned above in your statement....the descriptions of several schools of logic and you defined them as:

regulations and aphorisms designed by the manipulators of the feeble-brained is your ticket to debating oblivion

or do you mean that only a feeble brain could believe in God! That is a personal and collective attack on many.

based on this....will you concede not only the possibility of God but also that a belief in such a God that puts mankind in dominion over the earth is possibly not all that illogical?

If not...then by what standard or definition of logic is it illogical?
I will apply the logic and test it for myself!.

Unless you accept dawkins conclusions largely......on faith? I assume you quote Stephen Dawkins right?

The man has made other statments as well you know? If you ask for context...so shall I.

My faith will endure and in fact increases from opposition! Ask anyone who claims to have it.

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Bartikus,

A " mental virus" is that which impairs "rational thinking." Belief in "other worlds" is deemed to be irrational based on the available public evidence. If we allowed your concept of "other world" why should we not allow that of the suicide bomber ?
(This is a rhetorical question which I hope will not bring forth an argument for your particular view of "eternity")

You clearly identify yourself with your faith which is exactly what adherents of other religions do. If anything can be deemed to be an "eternal truth" it is the continual conflict which ensues therefrom.

I am pleased for that you now consider your posts to be strengthening your faith, but such brownie point gathering usually attributed to door-knocking evangelists continues to give rationalists grounds for genuine concern.

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fresco wrote:

Bartikus,

A " mental virus" is that which impairs "rational thinking." Belief in "other worlds" is deemed to be irrational based on the available public evidence. If we allowed your concept of "other world" why should we not allow that of the suicide bomber ?
(This is a rhetorical question which I hope will not bring forth an argument for your particular view of "eternity")

You clearly identify yourself with your faith which is exactly what adherents of other religions do. If anything can be deemed to be an "eternal truth" it is the continual conflict which ensues therefrom.

You don't believe that other world's exist?

Suicide bombers believe that their religion is the only way to God. Yes?

Suicide bombers by killing others who do not follow their teachings and according to their teachings believe they send their victims straight to hell for not believing.

Suicide bombers are not only motivated by going to heaven. (ok for all the motivation that is.)

Suicide bombers are also motivated by the idea that their victims will go to hell forever. (hatred)

Christians do not desire anyone go to hell.....even those who wish us to hell! (like christ - christian) (love)

Christians would rather die a mortal death (jesus) than for anyone to go to hell!( love)

Jesus said it was his desire that no man be lost!

Christ even died to save those who have such hate so that when they do die....they will die with love and not hate in their hearts.

God loves mankind and as the scripture says: You cannot claim to know God and hate your brother. I may not approve of what one does but that level of hate.....will be waiting for those who have it when they die.

"Where your heart is, their your treasure will be also"!

I and many others now desire the same!

Give and ye shall recieve

Love not just those who love you...but love even those who despise you and hate you. Anyone is able to love only those who love them...what is their reward? (Jesus words) remember....he is the truth.

These words are to be used in the spirit they are given in...love!

If not love or concern or compassion......they would be of no good. If used as only a blunt object to bash. So will these words be used to bash the basher.

I tell you these are the words of my Father and Lord of creation!

Love is the highest of all fruits of the spirit...for a reason.

I tell you out of Love and if Love cannot compel us.....what will?

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Bartikus wrote:

Suicide bombers believe that their religion is the only way to God. Yes?

Suicide bombers by killing others who do not follow their teachings and according to their teachings believe they send their victims straight to hell for not believing.

Suicide bombers are not only motivated by going to heaven. (ok for all the motivation that is.)

Suicide bombers are also motivated by the idea that their victims will go to hell forever. (hatred)

Christians do not desire anyone go to hell.....even those who wish us to hell! (like christ - christian) (love)

Christians would rather die a mortal death (jesus) than for anyone to go to hell!( love)

Jesus said it was his desire that no man be lost!

Christ even died to save those who have such hate so that when they do die....they will die with love and not hate in their hearts.

God loves mankind and as the scripture says: You cannot claim to know God and hate your brother. I may not approve of what one does but that level of hate.....will be waiting for those who have it when they die.

"Where your heart is, their your treasure will be also"!

I and many others now desire the same!

Give and ye shall recieve

Love not just those who love you...but love even those who despise you and hate you. Anyone is able to love only those who love them...what is their reward? (Jesus words) remember....he is the truth.

These words are to be used in the spirit they are given in...love!

If not love or concern or compassion......they would be of no good. If used as only a blunt object to bash. So will these words be used to bash the basher.

I tell you these are the words of my Father and Lord of creation!

Love is the highest of all fruits of the spirit...for a reason.

I tell you out of Love and if Love cannot compel us.....what will?

I trust that you can provide adequate proof for all your points regarding the sweeping statements you have made concerning what other people do.
Am I in error ?

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All this defensive byplay is causing a resurgence of a thought I had some time ago.
That thought was this :
Is a mind that contains religion capable of rational thought concerning religion ?

I understand that the question raises a dichotomy given an affirmative.

I personally find that dichotomy well within the bounds of human capability but I also understand that the capability renders the religious thoughts of the mind in question invalid and irrelevant.

If the answer to the question is in the negative then we are left with the conclusion that all religious thoughts are irrational, invalid and clearly, given the current state of thinking, no longer relevant.

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Reconciling faith and science

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