Reconciling faith and science

Does God exist?

A university professor challenged his students with this question. Did GOD create everything that exists?

A student bravely replied...yes, he did! "GOD created everything?" The professor asked. "Yes, sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If GOD created everything, then GOD created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal, that our works define who we are, then GOD is evil."

The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven, once more, that the Christian faith was a myth. Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course," replied the professor

The student stood up and asked, "Professor does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this?" Of course it exists. Have you ever been cold?" The students snickered at the young mans question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does NOT exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat.

Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy.

Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat: all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat.

The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?" The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness.

A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Is this not correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present." Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. "These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does NOT exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of GOD. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man had created to describe the absence of GOD. GOD did not create evil.

Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It is like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down
http://www.doesgodexist.org/AboutClayton/PastLife.html
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/WhoCreatedGod/WhoCreatedGod.html
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html

Cold is a lack of heat. Although you could also say: heat is a lack of cold

But I do get the point of the argument. If one exists then logic says the other must automatically exist too.

However the student overlooks the fact that if God created everything, he also created the logic that governs the universe, and the above argument. So God would have been able to create logic in such a way that he could have a universe filled with good, but no evil.

No, I don't think you do get it ohnono. You are seeing through the eyes of the professor.

Bartiku,

Would a believer say God creates diseases, eathquakes and tsunamis ?

Why would I want to see it through the eyes of the professor? He is being even more illogical than the student, plus arrogant.

I prefer to see it through my own eyes which are not blinded by either the professor's or the student's bias on the matter.

Logically speaking if God created everything then God created logic. If God created logic then any logical requirement for evil to coexist with good is entirely God's doing.

So the claim of the student which implies such a God is unable to create a world without evil is wrong. Also if this concerns the Christian God then of course God can do anything. He is like omni-super. He CAN create a rock that he can't lift - and he can lift it! Is that a contradiction? Yes. But God can do it nonetheless if he has dominion over the laws of logic. He can surely do things that we find impossible and fundamentally illogical. He can make 1+1 = 3 and square a circle, and yes he can certainly create a universe of good without evil.

But while the student is wrong, it isn't that much of a mistake. On the otherhand the professor is totally and utterly wrong to claim that God creating evil somehow disproves christianity. Why on earth would it?

I guess a believer could say these things were created by God or at the very least allow such things to occur.

What was written before asserts that evil in fact does not exist or coexist with good.

I do not assume our logic would be equal to that of an intelligence millions or billions of years ahead of ours...to do so would be foolishness.

Do you think it would be wise to allow a neandrethal man apply his use of logic and his intelligence to make judgements about any modern man? After all, we know so much now...and they knew very little.

God may very well be the author or creator of logic but, that does not mean he is agreement with our use and perception of it.

Here is an example of the Bible where you can twist it to your liking. Bible thumpers have selected verses to interprete their prejudices for ages.
I like Christians but I have worries about the Bible Thumpers so below is forthose Thumpers.

Reference: King James Version

Isaiah 14:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
a) I will ascend into heaven,
b) I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
c) I will sit also upon the mount of the Congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 d)I will ascend above the heights of the clouds:
e)I will be like the most High.


COMPARISON:

OLD TESTAMENT
1) Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
(Note: Lucifer is Latin for bright.)

NEW TESTAMENT
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (How arrogant, naming himself after such a lustrous heavenly body!)

OLD TESTAMENT
2) Isaiah 14:13 I will ascend into heaven


NEW TESTAMENT
Luke 24:51
And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

OLD TESTAMENT
3) Isaiah 14:13
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

The stars of God are the Israelites. (See Numbers 24:17 "...there shall come a Star out of Jacob,...")

Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said,
Look now towards heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him,
So shall thy seed be.

Deuteronomy 10:22
Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons, and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

NEW TESTAMENT
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them,
Verily I say unto you,
That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his the glory, ye also shall sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

OLD TESTAMENT
4) Isaiah 14:13
I will sit also upon the mount of the Congregation, in the sides of the north.
[Note:
a) Mt. Ophel, just south of the Temple Mount, has been identified as Mt. Zion. Jesus as a child sat in the Temple.
b) Location of the Last Supper is just north of (Mt. Zion?)]

Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

NEW TESTAMENT
Luke 2:46
And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

Matthew 26:20
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Luke 22:14
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

5) Isaiah 14:14
I will be like the most High.

God says He is the first and the last in the following passages:-

OLD TESTAMENT
Isaiah 41:4
Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

NEW TESTAMENT
Jesus says that he is the first and the last in the following passages:-

Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and untoLaodicea.

Revelation 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

God's garments are sprinkled with blood in the following passage:-

OLD TESTAMENT
Isaiah 63:3
I have trodden the wine press alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Jesus' garment is dipped in blood in the following passage:-

NEW TESTAMENT
Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

OLD TESTAMENT
In Isaiah, new heavens and new earth are mentioned in the following passage:-

Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

NEW TESTAMENT
In Revelation, a new heaven and a new earth are mentioned in the following passage:-

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away: and there was no more sea.

OLD TESTAMENT
God is the bridegroom of His people in the following:-

Isaiah 62:5
For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

NEW TESTAMENT
Jesus is the bridegroom of his followers in the following:-

Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said unto them, Can the chilren of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and shall they fast.

Mark 2:19.
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
20. But the days will come, while the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Luke 5:34.
And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridegroom fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
35. But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Revelation 19:7.
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 20:9.
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Isaiah 14:19
"But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,..."
Note: The image of Jesus on the cross confirms it for there is no gravesite of him.

Jesus fits the descriptions of Lucifer almost to a T.
So is Jesus God or Lucifer?

You just posted this on another thread. How in the world do you think Jesus fits the description of Lucifer? You're not one of those "Angels Of Light" are you?

Yeah, that's the nature of the antichrist. They often appear as children of light but the Bible also says we shall know them by their fruits. This is where the similarities become like the darkness and light.

One was seated next to God by God's authority and judgement. The other sought to lift his throne with or without the authority of God! One sought to fulfill God's will (selflessness) the other sought to fulfill only his will (selfishness).

One sought to follow the wishes of his father. The other only sought to do the father's if it served him.

There is no need for a God who does'nt see things the way I do and a God that does not carry out my will or my judgements in all my vast intelligence and wisdom and glory!

Sound familiar?

It should since this very nature has come about within us all at times. Sometimes...alot. This nature of man will pass away...it will destroy itself and there will be no more evil.

I agree with you on your assessment. However, could you elaborate on 'This nature of man will pass away...it will destroy itself and there will be no more evil?

How do you see this happening?

Evil destroys itself by turning it's back on the only source of life and existence there is...

"Those who try to save their life will lose it, those who lose their life for my name's sake shall find it"!

Do you suppose you could be a bit more detailed and less cryptic?

Do you ask this for yourself...do you not know what I am saying? Or do you ask for another?

I can't go much further without help if you understand?!

I can only reveal what i believe has been revealed to me.

I am asking for myself. You don't give much information.

Can you please elaborate on this statement:

God is the source.? This does'nt seem cryptic to me...it seems simple. I'm sorry

I'm speaking in a spiritual sense of course.

Unless evil will endure forever and my reading of the Bible says otherwise. "Every eye shall see and every knee will bow"!

What do you think?

Bartikus,

The problem with your position of evoking "a loving God" is either that he is impotent to prevent natural distasters, or he has some "purpose" for them. Of course at the meditational level you can wholistically transcend causality and time etc* but this is essentially a withdrawal from the world in which "scientists" operate. The cocoon of love to which you allude is meaningless to an infant screaming by the body of a drowned parent. The argument that the situation is then somehow alleviated by "God's Love" is akin to the double bind theory in schizophrenia.

*( Note that at this level binary logic as used by you in your professor aphorism breaks down.)

Is your argument that "a loving God" cannot allow a parent to die and if so then God either does not exist or if does...is not loving?

"The double bind notion initially met interest in the academic and mental health communities (Schuham, 1967), and it has provided part of the standard vocabulary of many clinical practitioners, to conceptualize the relational complexities typically addressed in individual and family therapy. This vocabulary continues to be used in spite of the fact that the theory itself has been largely discarded for the lack of convincing empirical support" http://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/1997/Koopmans.html

Seems as though the double bind theory in schizophrenia is a bit of a withdrawal from the world as well. I wonder how the theory came about.

Are you the screaming infant? I'm just wondering because I don't want to be insensitive. I just lost my mother not too long ago.

Bartikus

Para 1...whatever "God" is, the evidence that "God is loving" is highly problematic.

Para 2...I suggest that if you reject the double bind paradigm on the basis of "evidence" you are obliged to accept my answer to para 1. On the other hand, you might simply use it as a semantic construction

Para 3...(LOL) No, I'm not the screaming infant....I've just been warching the tsunami footage on BBC1. I sympathise with your own loss
but I personally cannot accept religious belief as anything more than a palliative.

BTW See my other posts for my take on "existence". I am an "atheist" based on my negative relationship with an "existent God concept". Any conceivable "thing" exists by virtue of its conception. What matters is the nature of the relationship and the degree of consensus thereto.

I think based on "evidence" it can be problematic to assert any kind of conclusion or judgement on the nature of God. You can point out a situation like the tragedy with a drowning parent and say because of this it is difficult to believe in a loving God. I can equally point out cases where wonderful things have occured that shed a better light on God's nature.

If you were not the screaming child.. how can you conclude what is meaningful or meaningless to the infant? Is it because the infant is probably incapable of comprehending a loving God? Ok, could the infant be screaming because it knows it's parent is dead? Highly unlikely. Very small children and infants would more likely come to the conclusion the parent was sleeping.

Have you ever tried to explain death to a little one before? Even if they can understand the meaning of the words you are telling them...they just don't get the "gravity" of the meaning..... in much the same way I feel occurs when trying to speak about God. "He who has ears, let him hear"! They hear without hearing and see without seeing. Maybe that's how you feel as well when addressing a believer.

I know you can sympathise with my loss because it is an issue that affects us all. Without your own personal experiences of loss and suffering...would you be able to sympathise with me in the way you do? Highly unlikely! Right?

Sometimes tragedy can bring out the best that people have to offer....love and compassion for his fellow man. I admit that sometimes this is the best evidence a believer has that there is a God. I personally wish that all people were more loving and compassionate to one another. I know I play an important role in that...I can do my part. I credit this desire within me to God or at the very least my faith in him. Maybe those who do not believe in a God (that can make all things possible) would say that all of mankind loving one another is an impossible dream. It would take a belief in an impossible God to believe in this impossible dream.

I know that nothing is possible to man if he believes it to be impossible.

A mere sense of duty, obligation, or guilt is not enough to accomplish such a thing. Only love...the kind of love I only became aware of and eventually was able to get the "gravity" of, from the Bible. In particular, the story of Jesus Christ. Who ironically is said to be "The Word" of God made flesh.

When this world comes about.... and it will, you will know the loving God exists and his word will be made flesh in us all! Impossible without belief.

Do you see the gravity of it all? Now watch those that laugh off and ridicule such a dream and ask yourself...... are they a weed to this dream or the rain? What are they hoping for?

"And ye shall know them by their fruits"!

Jesus said "God forgive them for they know not what they do"!

Grace still remains. How do I know? Because we are still here.