Reconciling faith and science

Terry wrote:

I don't know where the universe came from. No one does, although there are some interesting theories. But claiming that it was magically poofed into existence by a supernatural force, without explaining the origins and intentions of that supernatural force, does not get us anywhere.

I didn't claim that this happened. I just don't rule it out.

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Ascribing everything we do not yet understand to a God who pre-existed the universe, has magical powers and can do anything - even if it violates known physical laws - is simply an excuse to stop thinking about the natural processes that may have caused the big bang and abiogenesis. Such faith is a cop-out for those who are unwilling or unable to learn enough about science to understand the work that has already been done on the hard problems, and the very real possibility that we may someday find scientific explanations for everything. Or not.

I'm sure that every person that believes in God sat down one day and decided that science was just too difficult and they'd just believe in God instead. Rolling Eyes

What about atheists that don't study science? Are they cop-outs too?? Should everybody be forced to study science? Not everybody is interested in science, ya know??

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You can have a more rational faith while still accepting scientific discoveries, but what is the point

The point is that we still don't know and also some people have seen things or had experiences of a spiritual nature that cannot be explained by science.

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So where do you suppose this God/supernatural force came from, and where did it get the intelligence or desire to make a universe?

Just like you, I have no idea. This is beyond human intelligence.

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good article on faith and science

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1018_041018_science_religion.html

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"Science has yet to prove the non-existence of leprechauns, fairies, ghosts or goblins. I could go on and on. It is not the job of science to prove a negative. It is up to the people who believe, to supply the proof, if they can. The work of science is to prove what IS, not what ISN'T."

It is up to people who believe to prove what they believe and the work of science to prove what is as well? Why are you assigning the same task for 2 completely different schools of thought? Belief is based upon faith or evidence of things which are not seen, heard, tasted,analyzed by the senses in any way. Science relys completely upon these senses to confirm a truth.

If you say you can only believe something after knowing (through the senses)....then you are confusing the difference between believing something and knowing something.

If any person who relies solely upon their senses to tell them what is real sees a ghost but, previously believed that ghosts did not exist...will he then believe or will he believe his eyes and mind have played tricks on him or believe in some other logical explanation that science has not yet arrived at?

Belief....we all have a measure of faith within us.

It took a belief in the possibility of landing on the moon to set mankind's path toward it. Then their belief was realized. Now we know man can reach the moon because until they got there...we could only believe.

Unless you want science to operate by faith and prove itself, do not ask people's beliefs to operate by the senses to prove itself! It's unfair to do so and you know it!

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If God stood before you now....would you believe in him or would you conclude that you were having hallucinations? What level of "evidence" would a non-believer require of the existence of God?

Please provide the same level of evidence to me of any scientific theories or claims so that I may....BELIEVE!

Would any amount of evidence of God really convince the unbelievers? Would God have to submit himself to endless examinations and tests? Would people ever be convinced or would some....still not believe out of a need for there to not be a God?

Ponder that for awhile and get back to me.

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Bartikus wrote:

If God stood before you now....would you believe in him or would you conclude that you were having hallucinations?

Whatever stood before me would have to convince me of the supernatural, and I'm not sure if it's possible for me to be convinced of that. Although, I assume that if a god stood before me and wanted me to believe something it would, or could, simply change my personality such that I could believe the supernatural (of course, if my personality were truely changed, then I wouldn't be me any more, I would be something else).

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How can anyone be truly convinced of the supernatural when a person can just say that there must be a logical explanation for these occurences I am witnessing because I don't believe in the supernatural?

I believe in what is natural and logical....even in the face of evidence!

Faith we all have and knowing very little.

Even if God stood before you and demonstrated the supernatural...your not sure if you could be convinced?....well, even if the big bang model was demonstrated in a lab in my presence and brought about all that is in the universe.....I may have doubts!

We are leaps and bounds away from these levels of evidence either way are'nt we ye faithful?

The fact is we all believe in something and choose what to believe according to the desires of our heart!

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John Creasy

My friend who was teaching a class of 7 year olds asked "What are clouds made of ?"..."Water" came the answer....And how did it get there?....."God put it there" said one little girl....."Moron" said the little boy next to her..."its evaporation".

Is there not an infinite regress of "God" and "Moron" at all boundaries of human knowledge ?

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Bartikus wrote:

The fact is we all believe in something and choose what to believe...

Yes, I choose to believe in the philosophy of naturalism. I am aware that it is a choice.

Bartikus wrote:

...according to the desires of our heart!

I'm not so sure of that part, though I have often wondered why I choose what I do.

It's possible that I have no real choice, and that my brain simply cannot work any differently. I'm not sure.

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rosborne979 wrote:

It's possible that I have no real choice, and that my brain simply cannot work any differently. I'm not sure.

That is possible I suppose, but then we would be reduced to robots preprogrammed to think a certain way. If true would it also be possible that those who commit crimes....cannot help but do so?

You do realize that you called your belief a choice then questioned whether it is a choice? Do you believe it is a choice? lol

fresco wrote:

Is there not an infinite regress of "God" and "Moron" at all boundaries of human knowledge ?

All human knowledge reveals more about what we don't know than what we do know. How can one truly know anything without knowing everything? Maybe.....faith?

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Bartikus wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
It's possible that I have no real choice, and that my brain simply cannot work any differently. I'm not sure.

That is possible I suppose, but then we would be reduced to robots preprogrammed to think a certain way.

Yup, that could be true. The physical structures of our brains might preclude, or dominate our ability to make certain choices.

Bartikus wrote:

If true would it also be possible that those who commit crimes....cannot help but do so?

In my opinion, people are a combination of nature and nurture, not one or the other.

Bartikus wrote:

You do realize that you called your belief a choice then questioned whether it is a choice?

You're right. I guess I like to re-evaluate my view of things, sometimes right after I've seen them Smile

Bartikus wrote:

Do you believe it is a choice? lol

Yes, I do. But that doesn't mean that I'm certain of it.

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Mankind does not know enough about themselves to come to any conclusions about the origins of the universe. All are mere guesses that are guarded as fact by some. I guess we are still about as primitive as can be and wish we knew more... so much so....we posture as if we do know more!

Hopefully mankind will survive long enough to go from infancy to childhood, God willing.

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Bartikus wrote:

Mankind does not know enough about themselves to come to any conclusions about the origins of the universe.

We know a great deal about ourselves and the universe. We know enough to make predictions of things like black holes, long before they are ever discovered. We can also predict the existence of certain atomic particles before they are ever seen.

In point of fact, our models are exceedingly good and getting better all the time.

Philosophers can argue the nature of "knowing" and suggest that all is just a dream. But it's pure sophistry to suggest that we can't draw "conclusions" when we live in a world where the rubber hits the road.

Bartikus wrote:

Hopefully mankind will survive long enough to go from infancy to childhood, God willing.

When we get past saying "God willing" and learn to take responsibility for our own future, then we will have taken the first step in the right direction.

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Who is to say that God did not use the Big Bang theory to create the world? Who is to say it had nothing at all to do with evolution?

The Bible said God created the heavens and the earth. It didn't spell out exactly how He did that. I can accept a scientific theory or even scientific fact as possibly being the way God did something. What I cannot accept is that God had nothing to do with it at all.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Who is to say that God did not use the Big Bang theory to create the world?

That's fine. And there's no evidence in conflict with such a theory. However, science itself can not make such an assumption because it involves the supernatural.

Momma Angel wrote:

The Bible said God created the heavens and the earth. It didn't spell out exactly how He did that. I can accept a scientific theory or even scientific fact as possibly being the way God did something.

I can too.

Momma Angel wrote:

What I cannot accept is that God had nothing to do with it at all.

I on the other hand *can* accept that God had nothing to do with it at all. Because I can accept that God (or Gods) may not even exist.

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Then we will just have to agree to disagree on that final point? Laughing

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rosborne979 wrote:

We know a great deal about ourselves and the universe. We know enough to make predictions of things like black holes, long before they are ever discovered. We can also predict the existence of certain atomic particles before they are ever seen.

In point of fact, our models are exceedingly good and getting better all the time.

When we get past saying "God willing" and learn to take responsibility for our own future, then we will have taken the first step in the right direction.

Ok...we know a great deal about ourselves and the universe compared to what exactly? Compared to what we did before? People can predict black holes and particles...like people who predicted a cashless society and the use of oil thousands of years ago.

If what we know is "great" then what we don't know is incalculable and beyond human comprehension!

Our models will continue to get better all the time for quite some time indeed. It's the nature of not knowing a "great" amount.

We can get past saying whatever we choose...that does'nt mean we will get past the will of a vastly superior intelligence.

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We can get past saying whatever we choose...that does'nt mean we will get past the will of a vastly superior intelligence.

But - so far so good!

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goodfielder wrote:

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We can get past saying whatever we choose...that does'nt mean we will get past the will of a vastly superior intelligence.

But - so far so good!

Really....for who and at what price? If this intelligence was against us and we get around his will then..Great....

Maybe if we knew more...we would be against us too?! lol how ironic

Besides, how do you know you have gotten around his will? lol sorry i could'nt help myself.

If it is so far so good.
Just how often is your will really carried out in your life? lol so far of course

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Thinking about the central issue of "reconciliation" between faith and science, consider this (referred to by Harris). The Heavens Gate sect which was pinning their faith on the appearance of "a spaceship" in the wake of the Hale-Bopp comet had purchased an expensive telescope to catch early sight of their redemption. When they failed to observe their target they returned the telescope to the supplier as "defective" !

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Bartikus wrote:

We can get past saying whatever we choose...that does'nt mean we will get past the will of a vastly superior intelligence.

That's true. A vastly superior intelligence might just choose to squash our entire civilization like a bug.

But I'm not going to spend my life worrying about that.

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Reconciling faith and science

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