georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 11:28 pm
Here's the view of an eminent American conservative

William Buckley wrote:

By William F. Buckley Jr.
Fri Mar 31, 8:06 PM ET



Jean-Philippe Cotis is the chief economist of the OECD, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, based in Paris. His views, as one would expect, have been solicited in the matter of the extraordinary French paralysis that has resulted from the passage, by the Villepin government, of what they call the "CPE" -- which translates loosely as the First Employment Contract. What this reform says is that people hired in France who are under 26 years old can be dismissed by their employers within two years. For specific causes? No, for any cause.

There are laws in France, as in the United States, that prohibit a refusal to hire, or a decision to fire, based on religious, ethnic or sexual prejudice. But CPE says that, those prohibitions to one side, the McDonald's hamburger stand can dismiss a (young) employee without the need to file encyclopedic papers with various French ministries.

Everyone knows what then happened. A strike. At first, it was hoped that it would be a localized strike, young people contingently affected by the new law demanding protection from it. But oh no, the French these days like to strike on a grand scale. In 1968, one of those strikes immobilized the great Charles de Gaulle, and though he survived the immediate event, he was so weakened by it that not much later he resigned his office. President Jacques Chirac is already so weakened by policy confusion and personal corruption as to be something on the order of a lame-duck president. The principal political figure today is Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, who plans to succeed Chirac in 2007, unless Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, the tough challenger, beats him in a primary fight.

What the OECD chief economist said was that the embattled CPE law would actually benefit the majority of French workers because it would lend stability to the sickly French economy. Mr. Cotis announced grandly that he hoped that French unemployment would reduce from 9.6 percent to something under that, but that such an improvement would depend on fortifying the structural economic scene in France. To do this, one needs to give the market a freer play than it has when tied down by regulations that prevent production from adjusting to seasonal demands.

Cotis pointed out what one would hope would have been acknowledged intuitively, namely that inflexible employment contracts diminish productivity and augment genuine insecurity, especially for workers temporarily needed, who are not being hired because prospective employers can't make commitments that would jeopardize the future.

A staggering 30 percent of the French are inactive. This is outre welfarism. It is not diplomatic to make comparison with the United States, but Cotis did so, advising his European constituency that there are two models that work, the first being the U.S. model, where firing is easy and where "spontaneous" return-to-work is achieved. By that is meant that an American who loses his job finds another job within a reasonable length of time.

In 1982, during the U.S. economic slowdown, President Reagan professed dissatisfaction with the weekly reports he was being given by the Labor Department. He was being told, let us say, that 1.2 million people were out of work. He instructed his staff that he wished to be advised how many people, in the period under observation, had been hired. If 1.2 million have been out of work for six months, the picture is dire. If the figures for the month reveal that 100,000 lost their jobs and 100,000 were hired, then the question to ask is: How long were the afflicted without employment? A vigorous economy will accept losses if compensated by hirings. As the gross situation improves, periods of joblessness diminish.

The second model cited by Cotis is the "Nordic" model, which leaps in when workers lose a job and helps them find another job. Cotis, without saying so in as many words, was arguing the benefits of the U.S. model.

A striking observation on the entire question was made by a student leader. He said, with reference to the flexibility factor that the CPE reform sought to achieve, that he had no interest whatever in economic flexibility -- and went back to express himself on the streets with his picket sign.

There is little economic impact on Americans from French economic lethargy. Granted that nations less wealthy than they might otherwise be generate less demand --including demand for exported U.S. products. But that is small time, under the aspect of the heavens. What is big time is the sheer ignorance by a civilized nation of the rudiments of free and wealth-generating economic policies. Resorting to a strike in order to protest fundamental economic reform taxes the intellectual and spiritual vitality of freedom.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 11:34 pm
Quote:
What is big time is the sheer ignorance by a civilized nation of the rudiments of free and wealth-generating economic policies. Resorting to a strike in order to protest fundamental economic reform taxes the intellectual and spiritual vitality of freedom.


I think, exactly this marks the differences between the "USA model" and our European view: not economy is here (still) the focussed center but humans and their rights.

We aren't as capitalistic as you are.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Apr, 2006 11:47 pm
An aspect, which is missed in the media oursite France (and Euope): many pupils and students are now between three weeks and two months more or less complete out of school and/or university - this long time of uninterrupted blockage puts exams and certificates in danger.

So, many of the youth (and their parents) will agree to end the these blockages under whatever conditions, just to finish the school/university year properly.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 12:18 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Quote:
What is big time is the sheer ignorance by a civilized nation of the rudiments of free and wealth-generating economic policies. Resorting to a strike in order to protest fundamental economic reform taxes the intellectual and spiritual vitality of freedom.


I think, exactly this marks the differences between the "USA model" and our European view: not economy is here (still) the focussed center but humans and their rights.

We aren't as capitalistic as you are.


Very interesting points here Walter, and I do agree with you. Perhaps a central aspect of the difference is at the intersection of the concepts of freedom and rights. We think of human rights as centered on freedom of individual action, as opposed to the right to a particular outcome. One can make unwise choices and end up poor as a result. It seems to me that, compared to us, Europeans are more willing to exchange their freedom of individual action for the right or expectation of certain outcomes such as economic security.

I believe Buckley's central point in the section you quoted is that, in economic matters, freedom of action is known to produce the best economic result for the greatest number of people, and that the centrally managed alternatives cannoit be long sustained. Moreover, the beneficiaries of guaranteed economic outcomes can become addicted to these illusory protections and lose even their appetite for freedom -- as is so evident today in France.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 12:39 am
It would be a long discussion (without finding a resolution .... and an end, IMHO) looking at the different views of freedom - and the "why's".

But generally, I might agree with your above.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:08 am
Quote:
Chirac is issued with ultimatum over youth jobs law

By John Lichfield in Paris
Published: 06 April 2006
Negotiations began yesterday to resolve France's youth jobs law crisis but there was no sign of a rapid or easy settlement. With many universities blocked by the protests, exams looming and further strikes threatened, the government is desperately searching for a way to defuse the tension.

The centre-right government has already made it clear that it is prepared to amend - almost to the point of oblivion - a new easy-hire, easy-fire contract for the under-26s.

But with presidential elections 12 months away, the centre-right is rancorously divided on how much more ground it can publicly concede to student and trade-union protesters. Protest leaders made it clear, meanwhile, in a firmly worded statement, that they would accept only a complete and public climb-down by the government.

Even before talks with centre-right leaders began yesterday afternoon, a meeting of the 12 union and student federations issued a statement giving the government until 17 April to scrap the jobs contract.

If the government failed to meet this deadline, the unions and students warned, there would be more strikes and demonstrations. Student leaders also called for an intensification of campus blockages and more of the wildcat actions in which young people have blocked roads and railway lines.

In the first round of negotiations between ministers and parliamentary leaders, little progress was made. The government representatives put no new ideas on the table. They simply listened to the arguments of the union and student leaders, invited one by one to talks at the Senat, the upper house of the French parliament.

Some government figures - including its number two, Nicolas Sarkozy - have made it clear they would be content to sweep the table of the vexatious "CPE" law and start again. The Prime Minister, Dominique de Villepin, has said privately, however, that he will resign rather than completely disavow a law which he has vociferously championed as essential to the heath of the French economy.

At a press conference yesterday, M. de Villepin appeared to hint once again at resignation. He said he would "draw the appropriate conclusions" from the progress of the negotiations. Parliamentary supporters of M. de Villepin said there was no question of the jobs contract being abandoned.

The negotiations - requested in a nationwide address by President Jacques Chirac - were intended to "enrich" and "clarify" the law, not to bury it, they said.

The Union pour un Mouvement Populaire, the main centre-right party, is, however, deeply divided on this question. The majority - supporters of M. Sarkozy - would be content to see the back of the CPE (and for that matter M. Villepin). Many, loyal to President Chirac and the Prime Minister, are refusing to hand the left such a dramatic and public victory. There does not appear to be any room for a compromise between the two positions. Optimistic sources close to M. Sarkozy think the problem is largely "semantic". If a new law could be framed which removes union and student concerns - and probably the CPE title - it may be possible to persuade M. Chirac and M. de Villepin to cut their losses.

President Chirac had hoped his partial retreat last Friday would break the momentum of opposition. However, an estimated 2,000,000 people took to the streets earlier this week to call for the abolition of the jobs contract. The law would allow employers to hire people under 26 and fire them in their first two years without explanation.

Negotiations began yesterday to resolve France's youth jobs law crisis but there was no sign of a rapid or easy settlement. With many universities blocked by the protests, exams looming and further strikes threatened, the government is desperately searching for a way to defuse the tension.

The centre-right government has already made it clear that it is prepared to amend - almost to the point of oblivion - a new easy-hire, easy-fire contract for the under-26s.

But with presidential elections 12 months away, the centre-right is rancorously divided on how much more ground it can publicly concede to student and trade-union protesters. Protest leaders made it clear, meanwhile, in a firmly worded statement, that they would accept only a complete and public climb-down by the government.

Even before talks with centre-right leaders began yesterday afternoon, a meeting of the 12 union and student federations issued a statement giving the government until 17 April to scrap the jobs contract.

If the government failed to meet this deadline, the unions and students warned, there would be more strikes and demonstrations. Student leaders also called for an intensification of campus blockages and more of the wildcat actions in which young people have blocked roads and railway lines.

In the first round of negotiations between ministers and parliamentary leaders, little progress was made. The government representatives put no new ideas on the table. They simply listened to the arguments of the union and student leaders, invited one by one to talks at the Senat, the upper house of the French parliament.

Some government figures - including its number two, Nicolas Sarkozy - have made it clear they would be content to sweep the table of the vexatious "CPE" law and start again. The Prime Minister, Dominique de Villepin, has said privately, however, that he will resign rather than completely disavow a law which he has vociferously championed as essential to the heath of the French economy.
At a press conference yesterday, M. de Villepin appeared to hint once again at resignation. He said he would "draw the appropriate conclusions" from the progress of the negotiations. Parliamentary supporters of M. de Villepin said there was no question of the jobs contract being abandoned.

The negotiations - requested in a nationwide address by President Jacques Chirac - were intended to "enrich" and "clarify" the law, not to bury it, they said.

The Union pour un Mouvement Populaire, the main centre-right party, is, however, deeply divided on this question. The majority - supporters of M. Sarkozy - would be content to see the back of the CPE (and for that matter M. Villepin). Many, loyal to President Chirac and the Prime Minister, are refusing to hand the left such a dramatic and public victory. There does not appear to be any room for a compromise between the two positions. Optimistic sources close to M. Sarkozy think the problem is largely "semantic". If a new law could be framed which removes union and student concerns - and probably the CPE title - it may be possible to persuade M. Chirac and M. de Villepin to cut their losses.

President Chirac had hoped his partial retreat last Friday would break the momentum of opposition. However, an estimated 2,000,000 people took to the streets earlier this week to call for the abolition of the jobs contract. The law would allow employers to hire people under 26 and fire them
Source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:16 am
[quote="Lash] Seems to me, they (the ones who rioted before {was that February?} will be in the streets if the white students et al get their way.

Concerns of a race war...[/quote]

Such - as to be expected - didn't happen: neither a "race war" nor did the students "gte their way".
And as the posted photos prove ober the three weeks time since that original reponse by Lash, it weren't "white students" but French pupils and students ...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 12:17 pm
According to several sources, Villepin might wihdraw the law. At least, he will water it down much more than previously announced.

(source: AFP, Le Parisien, dpa and others.)
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 12:24 pm
t seems top me that if Villepin, after assertions of firmness in his position and Chirac's compromise, now abandons the law, he will be politically finished. Sarkozy appears to have cleverly (and perhaps cynically) positioned himself as a winner in any outcome. A foolish electorate manipulated by childish and selfish unions, etc. breeds cynical and manipulative politicians. We all have this problem to a degree, but it seems particularly bad in France right now.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 12:41 pm
My thoughts are just the other way around, George: I think, it was very foolish to govern against those, who elected this government and will elect the new president.

Sarkozy is good on listening what the electorate says and even better in doing/saying what they want to hear.

I strongly oppose that it can be named childish and selfish what the unions did, especially since they didn't start but "normal young citizens", namely pupils and students. (That was in those days when Lash was sure, a "race war" would come of this :wink: )
0 Replies
 
Jonsey
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 12:50 pm
Don't know if someone had already posted this article but here's another article about the 3rd day of rioting in France - French Protestors

Things are getting pretty bad. But if they give into the demands that might set the initiative for more rioting the next time around.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:01 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Lash wrote:
Seems to me, they (the ones who rioted before {was that February?} will be in the streets if the white students et al get their way.

Concerns of a race war...


Walter Hinteler wrote:
Such - as to be expected - didn't happen: neither a "race war" nor did the students "gte their way".

And as the posted photos prove ober the three weeks time since that original reponse by Lash, it weren't "white students" but French pupils and students ...


Actually, the suburban youth, who are without a doubt much darker skinned on average, which speaks to the increasing poverty gap between darker skinned French youth and their white counterparts, WERE in the streets, Walter. Remember them storming the comparatively white-complected rallies? Beating the students, stealing their cell phones...? Did you forget? That proved my point, actually, though not yet to a more dramatic level.

Do you disagree that dark skinned youth have a dramatically higher unemployment rate? Do you deny the largely minority, suburban youth group attacked their whiter, wealthier counterparts?

However, too early to close the speculation.

It's not over yet.

The suburban youth will see if they get more jobs. We'll see.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:05 pm
I have learned many times that associates who habitually tell me what they think I want to hear are not really loyal allies, deputies or friends. Very often it is those who strongly disagree with me who are my real allies.

Political "leaders" who merely echo what they believe the public wants at the moment are not leaders at all. I agree that public concerns should not be ignored. However if response to them comes at the cost of knowing hypocrisy, then it isn't worth much. The case for labor market reform in France (and Germany) is very strong, and I believe Sarkozy has already made his desire for reform fairly clear. Given all that his slippery behavior in the present circumstance is not a good indicator of integtity.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:07 pm
The French government ALWAYS gives in to demands from their own people.
It is BECAUSE they cave in every time, that their people demonstrate at the drop of a hat.

If it is anything to do with the international community, however (CAP rebate, Nuclear testing etc) they will go into superior mode, sniff a few times, and hold their ground.

Their politicians are truly a weird bunch.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:11 pm
Lord Ellpus wrote:
The French government ALWAYS gives in to demands from their own people.
It is BECAUSE they cave in every time, that their people demonstrate at the drop of a hat.


I believe, most governments do so.

I could recapitulate some from an island situated just offshore the European coast, but that would be another topic :wink:
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:13 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Lord Ellpus wrote:
The French government ALWAYS gives in to demands from their own people.
It is BECAUSE they cave in every time, that their people demonstrate at the drop of a hat.


I believe, most governments do so.

I could recapitulate some from an island situated just offshore the European coast, but that would be another topic :wink:


What, you mean the time when Maggie stood up to the unions? I didn't see much of a change of mind there.

Our recent politicians only seem to change their minds when they are dealing with the froggies. Why? Not a clue.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:18 pm
They've perfected the capitulation. LOL!

I heard a very interesting story about French welfare-ism and how their attempts to babysit the nation from the cradle to the grave is shutting them down economically. One on CNN and one on PBS.

The kids all want to work for the government, because they can sit around all day and do nothing. One show summarized, after interviews, that French people are afraid of the future. They have no hope, and just want the security of one stable, government job for life.

There aren't nearly enough jobs to go around, because unions run the country and they are no longer a feasible place to do business. Globalization has bled all their jobs, because they aren't competitive. This is what unions will do to you, if you let them.

This trend will continue unabated until France finally sees the handwriting on the wall--as DeV has--and acts on it.

If the French think things are bad now, wait for a few years. They'll be sitting around fighting over bread, while India takes all their business.

Think Soviet Union, before the inevitable fall. It's coming.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:18 pm
School reforms? NHS?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:24 pm
Nevermind. If in France the same will happen to the conservatives there what happened to their sisters and brothers in the UK after Maggie: it's okay as well.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Apr, 2006 01:35 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
School reforms? NHS?


No walter....that was not the people.

That was his own MP's. He tried to bully a law through and they rebelled.


You think that breaking the absolute power that our unions had was a bad thing?

If the miners couldn't get what they wanted, when they wanted it, they went on strike. They knew that the UK relied on coal. We endured power cuts (outages in the USA) regularly, and all of our industry went on a three day week. This happened every time a wage claim was made.

Erm, let's see....this year we want a 12% rise. No? OK....all out, boys.

I would much rather have our modern, WORKING, flexible employment conditions. There is not half the misery now, and when I think back to what it was like in the 70's/early 80's, I am very glad that big unions don't hold us over a barrel any more.
0 Replies
 
 

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