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How would an anti-hate crimes law affect Christians?

 
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2005 02:15 pm
non-denom christian wrote:
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
non-denom christian wrote:
"Christian hate groups" sounds like an oxymoron. How 'bout saying religious hate groups.


However, I'm more disgusted at the fact that the first thing it appeared you thought about was "how it would affect Christians" and not, "how it would affect Freedom of Speech".


This country was founded on Christianity.
If you find that hard to believe, read the money in your pocket.


Let me see... "Bank of England. I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of Five Pounds." Erm... let me check the other side. "Bank of England. Five Pounds." Nope. No mention of God here.

You shouldn't assume I'm American just because I post on these forums.

Yet, yes, my country is predominantly Christian. It is law that all state-run schools, teach Christianity in school. Schools are allowed to teach other religions, but because of our nation's predominantly Christian tradition and history, the majority of religious education classes must be spent on teaching Christianity.

Our Constitution is not written. We do not, unlike Americans, have a written Constitution.

Despite this, we have Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and yes, even Christians. Regardless, we have Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, and the Right to be an Individual.

And when our Government tried to pass an Anti-Hate-Speech Bill, the first cry that rang up was "This is against Freedom of Speech", not "How will this affect Christians" or "How will this affect Muslims"?

For you see, any Anti-Hate Speech Law can and may end up affecting everyone. You could say, "I hate Nazis" and make a hate speech about Nazis. Justified in a way, but the Law would ban you from saying it.

On the one hand, yes, you don't want people spouting out hate speech that would result in violence or discrimination against a community. In fact, I remember the Bill our Government tried to pass was actually called "Incitement of Racial Hatred" or something along those lines. It was to prevent extreme Muslim clerics from inciting hatred against Jews, and extreme Christians from inciting hatred against gays and Jews and Muslims and what have you.

Though good-natured in a way, the Bill does come up with a problem. You stifle Freedom of Speech. Can a free country stifle Freedom of Speech to protect a minority. Does the end justify the means?

I cannot help but feel as if I'm standing with one foot on two boats moving in opposite directions. On one hand, the proposed Law is good intentioned and may lead to good things. On the other hand, it could be abused and it is something a free democracy shouldn't resort to.

This law is far too important to ignore.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2005 03:17 pm
boomerang wrote:
Here's my idea:

Clergy should take on gluttony and leave homosexuals alone for a little while.

There are a lot more gluttons than there are gays.

They'd really be doing their congregation a service.

Maybe I'll go beat up a glutton to test this law.


Lol! Very clever, Boomer.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2005 03:52 pm
I think if the Law tackles the type of behaviour in this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4408272.stm, then it would probably be a good idea to pass it through but to make sure it has the proper safety measures to prevent good people from being jailed for nothing more than criticism.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2005 05:08 pm
dlowan you are invited to be a charter member of The Church of I Can't Believe It's Not Butter. Please send me 10% of your income (net, not gross) at your earliest possible convenience.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=62759&start=0
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2005 07:54 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
I think if the Law tackles the type of behaviour in this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4408272.stm, then it would probably be a good idea to pass it through but to make sure it has the proper safety measures to prevent good people from being jailed for nothing more than criticism.


Excellent point Wolf - it's a very long journey from criticism to incitement. Incitment is easy to recognise.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2005 08:21 pm
Non-Denom.

I don't get why you, calling yourself a Christian, are in favor of hate crimes (or at least don't want laws against hate crimes)?

It seems to me that Jesus would be against both hate and crime.
0 Replies
 
non-denom christian
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 11:30 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Non-Denom.

I don't get why you, calling yourself a Christian, are in favor of hate crimes (or at least don't want laws against hate crimes)?

It seems to me that Jesus would be against both hate and crime.


No I am not in favor of hate crimes. My law, "the 10 commandments", already addresses this issue. I feel like all crimes are based on hate, and one doesn't need to make a separate law for it.

Take for example this: Your grandmother gets mugged and her purse gets stolen, in the process of being mugged her hip is broken.

Then, on the same day in the same city.. A man gets beat up and his money is stolen, he needs stitches. The man happens to be homosexual.

Special monies have been set aside for the police department to start enforcing the new anti-hate crimes law. The department gets more Federal money for showing that they are enforcing the new law.

Which case do you think will have more attention by the police force? Which criminal will they try to find first? Which criminal will receive more punishment?

Catering to special interest groups means ignoring the general public.

In my opinion both crimes were equally wrong, and both should receive equal punishment. Both victims should receive equal relief.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 11:52 am
NDC - unfortunately, people are still beaten for happening to be gay, black, jewish, etc. And, repeatedly, those crimes are allowed to slip into history without prosecution because the majority somehow felt they were ok. It's for those occurances that these laws are in place. Don't delude yourself into thinking there will be confusion as to what hate crimes are.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 11:54 am
When I first read the title to this thread, I thought, "Why, of course, christian hate groups would be tried just like another hateful group."
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 11:57 am
littlek wrote:
When I first read the title to this thread, I thought, "Why, of course, christian hate groups would be tried just like another hateful group."[/quote
Whoa, now there's a can of worms just ready for opening. Sitting on edge of chair.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 12:01 pm
dys, dlowan opened it, more or less, a couple pages back. I had to gird my loins before joining the party.
0 Replies
 
non-denom christian
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 12:28 pm
At the beginning of summer my son and two of his friends were jumped by seven guys who were sitting on a wall. My son and his friends walked by without saying a word or as much as looking at them funny.
Quit feeling sorry for yourselves. People get beat up for no reason every day. It's not just because they are black, jewish or homosexual.
There are people who just like to fight. They don't need a reason. Anyone is a target.
You didn't hear about my son and his white, straight, Christian, friends being beat up on the news did you?
In no way am I dising any type of person here, just saying it happens to everyone and there should be no "special treatment" to anyone.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 04:03 pm
Non-denom.

You say you follow the ten commandments.

Yet you are doing quite a bit of posting on the Sabbath. The ten commandments specifically forbids this.

I just thought you might like to know.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 04:04 pm
BTW,

Did your son turn the other cheek? I am just wondering.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 05:15 pm
non-denom christian wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Non-Denom.

I don't get why you, calling yourself a Christian, are in favor of hate crimes (or at least don't want laws against hate crimes)?

It seems to me that Jesus would be against both hate and crime.


No I am not in favor of hate crimes. My law, "the 10 commandments", already addresses this issue. I feel like all crimes are based on hate, and one doesn't need to make a separate law for it.

Take for example this: Your grandmother gets mugged and her purse gets stolen, in the process of being mugged her hip is broken.

Then, on the same day in the same city.. A man gets beat up and his money is stolen, he needs stitches. The man happens to be homosexual.

Special monies have been set aside for the police department to start enforcing the new anti-hate crimes law. The department gets more Federal money for showing that they are enforcing the new law.

Which case do you think will have more attention by the police force? Which criminal will they try to find first? Which criminal will receive more punishment?

Catering to special interest groups means ignoring the general public.

In my opinion both crimes were equally wrong, and both should receive equal punishment. Both victims should receive equal relief.



Thing is a number of groups get attacked just because they are of that group.


Homosexuals, and Islamic women wearing the veil (cos they are so obvious) are examples of this in our culture. Other groups may be the target of hate in other cultures.

You may choose to disagree with hate crime legislation, but so far you are doing so without taking facts into account.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 05:21 pm
Nondemon.

Again, you argue without logic.


Yes, people get beaten up/murdered etc without being targeted because they come from a particular group.

This does not, if you think about it, make any difference to the fact that some groups DO often get attacked simply because of being part of a group that attracts hatred from the ignorant or damaged.


Hint: If you want to construct a rational argument against anti hate legislation, try something along the lines of "The law already covers such offences"


Actually, though, while it likely covers actually attacking such folk, it probably does not cover inciting attack against them.
0 Replies
 
AliceInWonderland
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 08:39 pm
Honestly, who cares how the law would effect any individual group. What hate crimes laws attempt to do is punish people for their intent, rather than just your actions. Now, I can't speak for everybody, but I certainly have a difficult time reading minds to determine intent. It's just bad law. If law focusses on intent, rather than actions, it's less objective and more difficult to enforce fairly.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Nov, 2005 09:11 pm
One thing I do not understand is, why can't or won't non-believers, etc., understand the concept of hate the sin but not the sinner?

Just because I don't agree with what someone does gives me no license to treat them in anything other than a civil manner. I know someone in prison that is there because of a burglary. I don't hate that person because they committed a crime against society.

In the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin against God. But, that doesn't mean I am going to hate the person engaging in the act. That is between them and God to work out. It is not mine or anyone else's place to condemn anyone.

I have been called a gay basher just because I believe homosexuality is a sin. This just floors me! Lying is a sin. Murder is a sin. There are plenty of sins. Does this mean I should hate every person in the world because everyone of us sins? I think not. But, just because I have a different view than someone does not make me a gay basher.

There are obvious hate crimes. Those are the ones I believe these laws are referring to. Matthew Shepard, Teena Brandon, these were very obvious hate crimes. Those crimes turn my stomach. This is not what Christianity is about. Unfortunately, it is always the bad things that people remember the most. And unfortunately, the good suffer along with the bad.

I would imagine that even things like Jeff Foxworthy's redneck jokes will be called discrimination someday. I am sure someone will sue him for what he does. It's all a matter of perception.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 02:21 am
We do.

We just think lots of christians don't.

Oh.....and who, exactly, gets to decide who the sinners are....YOU....why?

I will back my dwarfy against your god any day.


There is no proof of both of them.

But my dwarfy is less homicidal.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Nov, 2005 02:30 am
Momma Angel wrote:
In the Christian faith, homosexuality is a sin against God.


Some think that ..... would sound better, or Many ..., if you insist.

(Otherwise it would be e.g. impossible to have a gay bishop in a Christian church.)
0 Replies
 
 

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