Frank--
Very, very good choice of bones to pick with God.
I say this, because I have already picked this bone with God, and He kindly explained to me via the Holy Spirit, what I need to know concerning this previously puzzling event.
I also had a difficult time with the smiting of an entire family AND their livestock, due to the sin of one guy.
Old Testament God was quite severe, and didn't mesh with my understanding. But, He has been kind to answer my questions.
My favorite example of God's barbarity has always been found in the Book of Job.
Hmmm. . . . thought I'd add my two cents here. . . . . being from a fairly conservative christian area I think I might understand what Frank is saying about oppression. I've found that if you are raised in an atmosphere that believes in a god that has definite rules . . . . . . whether they are stated or implied . . . . . like no drinking, no fornicating, no dancing, no homosexuality, no sex except for reproduction. . . or what ever the reining opinion is in the area . . . . that regardless of whether your rational mind comes to say well I don't think that is the God or I don't think that god exists there is still that guilt and fear associated with choosing to something you were taught was wrong. I mean how many people do things the same way their parents did even though it isn't the healthiest, easiest, or most logical way to do it. Now perhaps in areas where conservative, puritanical christianity isn't very prominent people don't feel fearful or oppressed by a god they were taught was tallying their wrongs actual or in thought and would send them to hell for either rejecting their faith or committing to many sins. Having never lived in an area where puritanical christianity didn't run rampant it is hard for me to imagine christians living by the gospel of love and forgiveness (New Testament) and not looking over their shoulders every time they sinned or reconsidered their faith in fear of eternal damnation is nearly impossible for me. . . . . .
Frank
Even as a semi-militant atheist ,I think your analogy of "God" an "Saddam Hussain" is somewhat strained to say the least !
The "reality" of the rewards and punsishments of "God" is (for believers) a matter of rationality concerning personal existence, and one of the major forces in matters of social conformity. On the other hand, the manipulations of a human tyrant do not impinge on existential questions and inlvolve coercion rather than conformity. Your personification of "God of the Bible" as a tyrant weakens the arguments for the pernicious nature of religion by focussing on supposed surface characteristics of "the deity" which can easily be countered by believers in a biblical "sub-text". The issue is not the artifacts of "belief" but its consequences.
The New Testament god is very different from the OT god, Frank... different enough to split a religion in two.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law...Of this much I assure you: until heaven and earth pass away, not the smalles letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with..."
Except the laws governing diet, right?
"And when Jesus speaks of his Father who is in Heaven -- and whe Jesus says My Father and I are one -- just what dol you think he is saying, Violet?"
I think he's saying that we're all capable of being enlightened. That's a pretty awesome message.
Sofia wrote:Frank--
Very, very good choice of bones to pick with God.
I say this, because I have already picked this bone with God, and He kindly explained to me via the Holy Spirit, what I need to know concerning this previously puzzling event.
I also had a difficult time with the smiting of an entire family AND their livestock, due to the sin of one guy.
Old Testament God was quite severe, and didn't mesh with my understanding. But, He has been kind to answer my questions.
Aha, so the Holy Spirit explained all this to you--and so even though you don't fear this god of yours, you do not have to show that you are not afraid by telling him here publicly that the move was a murderous, barbaric and absolutely intolerable and unnecessary move.
Isn't that fortunate.
Why not share with us why it was okay for your god to butcher those babies?
As our exchange proves, it all depends on how one interprets the subject.
Like I said, I'm still not sure if I believe in god or not, and not sure what god is for that matter. I'm not troubled by the fact that I don't know.
I like thinking about the big picture because it raises interesting questions, and has the magical quality of helping put life into perspective.
Personally, I see the Bible as a quasi-historical collection of stories and ethics lessons, rich in metaphor & not meant to be taken literally.
The interpretations are what we argue about.
Some people are content to surrender their reason for the simplicity (moral clarity) & feeling of righteousness that some philiosophies (or distortions) offer.
Frank--
Look at your hands. Are they clean? If you wash them, they appear to be clean. Several hundred years ago, you would have bet your life that after washing your hands, they were completely devoid of anything unclean. And, if a scientist showed up from the future with a microscope, you'd be SOL. Today, you know that even though they are freshly washed, there are germs and viruses swimming on them. What might you know hundreds of years in the future that may change your current truth about your 'clean' hands?
We have new realities on a regular basis.
How could we possibly claim we should know the mind of God, who created us all from nothing, if we have proven over hundreds of years, even decades that even our own human reality changes?
If I am equal to God, I expect to understand Him. I am not equal to God, and I don't expect to understand Him.
I merely have to trust Him. And I do.
I don't understand 'holiness'. I can't understand the reality of it, though I know the word and have seen the definition. God is the sole being imbued with holiness. The inability to suffer sin, dirtiness, evil. It doesn't seem fair to smite seemingly innocent people, to allow evil to attack a man like Job... In my human understanding, I don't get it. I believe what God encountered in some of these instances were an affront to His holiness, and perished from His sight. I believe without an understanding of holiness, we will never comprehend God's reasons to do some of the things He did.
Violet is right about the difference in the Old and New Testaments. God mellowed and walked the earth, because He was so utterly frustrated with humanity. This changed everything. God has not been such a smiter since.
I have yelled at God. I have driven like a bat out of Hell in a thunderstorm, when I couldn't see past the windshield, daring Him to kill me, when I lost one of my parents to a hideous death. I'm not afraid of God. And I'm not afraid of death. I love God, and respect Him, and spend time with Him.
That's my best attempt at explaining what's up with me and God.
Sofia
Your concept of God is a being much too simple and childish to be a real God. Much like a character from 1,001 Arabian Nights or Grimm's Fairy Tales. One so omnipitent and all-knowing would be much too complex to behave like that or undergo growing process ironically as humans learn more.
edgarblythe- Although I don't agree with Sophia's concept of a God, I certainly respect her RIGHT to believe in that way.
I think that if people believed what they wanted, and respected the rights of others to do likewise, without attempting to change another's views except when asked, ours would be a better, and much more peaceful world!
I agree, Phoenix. But, in a fair exchange of ideas, it is fair to state the truth according to our perception. One of the faults of this or any other forum is, we become too thin skinned, too used to arguing, so that if we are disagreed with we think it is a personal assault. Sorry if I offend, but I am only stating an opinion, not seeking a war.
Don't give it another thought, edgar. Spiritual beliefs are very individualised. I didn't expect anyone would share my particular belief. Just trying to explain why I don't feel the need to scream at God.
I must not have done too well, because from your remarks, it seems as though you think I said God undergoes a growing process... This was not what I meant. I say God is on a plane of existance too far past our ability to understand with our current reasoning. Like CroMagnon Man trying to make sense of molecular biology... You can't bridge that gap. There is too much space between where we are and where we need to be to comprehend the mind of God. Not trying to convince someone this is true--Just stating what is true to me.
No debate.
Was wondering if one doesn't believe in God or has no experience (with God or the Holy Spirit) then how does one be able to make judgement or valuation of God?
I do believe that God is omnipresent and all-knowing. I also believe that God is more than we people can comprehend, as
akin to an infant vs an adult.
Sofia
Previously, you wrote:
"I say this, because I have already picked this bone with God, and He kindly explained to me via the Holy Spirit, what I need to know concerning this previously puzzling event. "
So I asked you to share the information the Holy Spirit gave you that make the slaughter of the Egyptian babies something other than the murderous, unnecessary, vengeful, barbaric, set-up it was.
You have now posted two very long responses -- and never once touched on my request.
If you have such valuable information -- why would you not share it?
husker wrote:Was wondering if one doesn't believe in God or has no experience (with God or the Holy Spirit) then how does one be able to make judgement or valuation of God?
The same way one can "not believe in" and "have no experience with" the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus.
Believing in something is not necessary to make judgements or valuations about a thing -- gods included.
Quote:I do believe that God is omnipresent and all-knowing. I also believe that God is more than we people can comprehend, as akin to an infant vs an adult.
Fine. That certainly is your right -- and I, for one, have no trouble with that at all.
I have a friend who believes aliens are on our planet with the intention of taking it over for various reasons. He thinks they are few in number and are gathering information on us by reading our minds -- so that when the main body of their fellows get here, the conquest will be made easier.
He has conflicting ideas about how the aliens do this mind reading -- but he is sure television is involved -- and he often wears an aluminum foil cap while indulging in TV viewing.
That also is fine with me. That certainly is his right. And I have no trouble with his conduct at all.
All of which leads me to ask: What was your point with what you said?
I intend to make a further statement about that "friend" after I get some reaction to the story.
Frank, the Old Testament is a book of stories. It's not a book written by god, it's was written by men trying to understand god.
I suspect you're angry at certain interpretations (or distortions), and the people that take those stories literally.
Thanks was a joke - just funning you 