2
   

Bush Picks Judge Samuel Alito for Supreme Court

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2006 02:41 pm
I think many of us, including you, see through the posturing and posing for cameras, foolish questions and so on, but actually I think it is quite instructive about what kind of people we've elected. Very useful information. And if the judge is calm, collected, and answers the questions in thoughtful, educated, and accurate ways, no matter how foolish the questions are, I think its great. I think Alito did that. I think we need to see the nonsense, and by so doing, perhaps we have a better chance at correcting it by sending better people there. I hope the states that sent people like Kennedy and Biden to Washington are proud of them.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2006 03:57 pm
Thomas wrote:
I have no problem with newspapers publishing the transcripts of the hearings. I have a problem with superficial heat-of-the moment crap, repeated over and over on TV, affecting important political decisions. I have a problem with senators posturing for cameras instead of listening to the nominees answer. (The New York Times expressed this aptly in a recent headline: "But enough about you, judge -- let's listen to what I have to say!") TV coverage of Senate hearings greatly add to the latter problem without adding much transparency and publicity.


I don't know Thomas. Senators are more than happy to listen to themselves talk even without cameras there. Cameras might have changed the public's viewing but I don't think it changed the Senators' grandstanding.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jan, 2006 06:02 pm
Thomas wrote:
(The New York Times expressed this aptly in a recent headline: "But enough about you, judge -- let's listen to what I have to say!")


LOL!! I missed that one! I have no doubts they were talking about Biden, though Smile
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 04:04 am
In a post I already commented on but would like to comment on again, blatham wrote:
But the political aspects are terribly interesting too. The campaign waged by the administration and those who support Alito has been really masterful. The goal was/is to set Alito up in the public's mind such that any aggressive attack on him would be perceived as evil doers attacking apple pie. There is, of course, absolutely no legal relevance in the facts of family or even in whether he is a 'nice man'. The wife's tears may or may not have been a tacky pre-planned trick but that is precisely how the episode functioned, "How COULD those nasty Democrats DO such a thing!?" - and the PR boys in this administration are often brilliant at creating such scenes.

I had no problem with this assessment of yours, at least not as far as it goes. I also have no problem with your pointing out the importance of activism. The only (minor) beef I have is that it overstates the impact of marketing by not mentioning the quality of the product. From looking at primary sources in Alito's record -- most importantly, at the opinions he wrote on the bench -- it seems clear to me that he is a very good judge. He seems as worthy of sitting on the US Supreme Court as any judge who already sits on it.

As to Alito's ideology, the Democrats were simply wrong when they branded him as an extremist. They even seem to continue the mistake, judging by an article in today's New York Times: "In interviews, Democrats said the lesson of the Alito hearings was that this White House could put on the bench almost any qualified candidate, even one whom Democrats consider to be ideologically out of step with the country." But Alito was not ideologically out of touch with the country. The Democratic leadership could have checked this with a quick search on Pollingreport.com. It is the Democratic party line that was "out of step with the country" here.

On abortion for example, the majority of Americans opposes radical steps such as overruling Roe v. Wade, but favors marginal restrictions within the current framework. That's exactly the policy Alito advocates in his now-famous 1985 memo. About the "war on terror", the predominant opinion is that the president has gotten the tradeoff between security and civil liberties "about right". (This is eroding in favor of "He went too far", but it's still the majority opinion.) Respondents to the polls are split almost evenly on whether Bush was right or wrong to wiretap without court orders. (Right: 50%, Wrong: 46%, Margin of error: 4%) So if Alito should turn out to be lenient on presidential powers, he may be wrong, but so would be 50% of the American people he's allegedly so of touch with. We don't need to discuss the merits of these majority positions here. But it seems pretty clear from the polls that wherever the Democratic party line disagrees with Alito, the majority of Americans sides with Alito and opposes the Democratic party line.

So not only did the Republicans present a good candidate (after knocking down the terrible Harriet Miers), the Democrats also waged a campaign against a candidate who didn't resemble the candidate they were voting on. Given such fundamental misjudgments about reality, good marketing campaigns can't make that much of a difference. I agree that to the extent it did make a difference, the Republicans were doing well. But you know what I think of this statement. If Alito is confirmed, that should be a reality check for the Democrats' platform writers, not their marketing agency.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 05:08 am
Oh, and since we've exchanged several pages worth of posts about the CAP question, let's hear what the senators found on their trip to the Library of Congress. They found, in a word, nothing. Is anyone surprised? Many pundits have insinuated that Alito had been dishonest when he said he didn't remember his CAP membership. Is any of them offering an apology now? Just asking.

The Washington Post, reprinting the congressional record, wrote:
SPECTER: The committee staff, accompanied by representatives of Senator Kennedy, went through the Rusher files yesterday, finishing up their work, I'm advised, at about 2 a.m. this morning, and provided me with a memorandum that the committee staff reviewed more than four boxes of documents from the personal files of William Rusher concerning CAP.

Judge Alito's name never appeared in any document. His name was not mentioned in any of the letters to or from the founder, William Rusher. His name was not mentioned in any of the letters to or from CAP's long-term executive director, T. Harding Jones. His name does not appear anywhere in the dozens of letters to CAP or from CAP.

The files contain canceled checks for subscriptions to CAP's magazine, Prospect, but none from Judge Alito.

The files contain dozens of articles, including investigative exposes written at the height of the organization's prominence, but Samuel Alito's name is nowhere to be found in any of them.

The Rusher files contain lists of the board of directors, the advisory board and the contributors to both CAP and Prospect magazine. But none of the lists contains Samuel Alito's name.

The files contain minutes and attendance records from CAP meetings in 1983 and 1984, just before Samuel Alito listed the organization on his job application, but Samuel Alito did not attend any of those meetings, at least according to those records. He's not even mentioned in the minutes.

The files contain dozens of issues of CAP's magazines, but nones of the articles was written by, quoted or mentioned Samuel Alito.

SPECTER: CAP founder William Rusher said, quote, "I have no recollection of Samuel Alito at all. He certainly was not very heavily involved in CAP, if at all."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/12/AR2006011201031.html
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 08:15 am
Thomas wrote:
In a post I already commented on but would like to comment on again, blatham wrote:
But the political aspects are terribly interesting too. The campaign waged by the administration and those who support Alito has been really masterful. The goal was/is to set Alito up in the public's mind such that any aggressive attack on him would be perceived as evil doers attacking apple pie. There is, of course, absolutely no legal relevance in the facts of family or even in whether he is a 'nice man'. The wife's tears may or may not have been a tacky pre-planned trick but that is precisely how the episode functioned, "How COULD those nasty Democrats DO such a thing!?" - and the PR boys in this administration are often brilliant at creating such scenes.

I had no problem with this assessment of yours, at least not as far as it goes. I also have no problem with your pointing out the importance of activism. The only (minor) beef I have is that it overstates the impact of marketing by not mentioning the quality of the product. From looking at primary sources in Alito's record -- most importantly, at the opinions he wrote on the bench -- it seems clear to me that he is a very good judge. He seems as worthy of sitting on the US Supreme Court as any judge who already sits on it.

As to Alito's ideology, the Democrats were simply wrong when they branded him as an extremist. They even seem to continue the mistake, judging by an article in today's New York Times: "In interviews, Democrats said the lesson of the Alito hearings was that this White House could put on the bench almost any qualified candidate, even one whom Democrats consider to be ideologically out of step with the country." But Alito was not ideologically out of touch with the country. The Democratic leadership could have checked this with a quick search on Pollingreport.com. It is the Democratic party line that was "out of step with the country" here.

On abortion for example, the majority of Americans opposes radical steps such as overruling Roe v. Wade, but favors marginal restrictions within the current framework. That's exactly the policy Alito advocates in his now-famous 1985 memo. About the "war on terror", the predominant opinion is that the president has gotten the tradeoff between security and civil liberties "about right". (This is eroding in favor of "He went too far", but it's still the majority opinion.) Respondents to the polls are split almost evenly on whether Bush was right or wrong to wiretap without court orders. (Right: 50%, Wrong: 46%, Margin of error: 4%) So if Alito should turn out to be lenient on presidential powers, he may be wrong, but so would be 50% of the American people he's allegedly so of touch with. We don't need to discuss the merits of these majority positions here. But it seems pretty clear from the polls that wherever the Democratic party line disagrees with Alito, the majority of Americans sides with Alito and opposes the Democratic party line.

So not only did the Republicans present a good candidate (after knocking down the terrible Harriet Miers), the Democrats also waged a campaign against a candidate who didn't resemble the candidate they were voting on. Given such fundamental misjudgments about reality, good marketing campaigns can't make that much of a difference. I agree that to the extent it did make a difference, the Republicans were doing well. But you know what I think of this statement. If Alito is confirmed, that should be a reality check for the Democrats' platform writers, not their marketing agency.


PR campaigns for or against a mis-portrayed candidate (or a cause or a 'product') very often succeed quite regardless of that disconnection from what is so. See "connection between 9/11 and Sadaam". See Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. See "compassionate conservatism". See "I'm a uniter, not a divider". See "the administration today released very positive economic figures." See the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Polling figures tell us what thomas? They tell us about perception, not about reality.

Would you have been so sanguine about this matter had Ronald Dworkin been the nominee, supported by Dem political dominance and an activist/PR support network comparable to what is the case now? As you likely understand, there is nothing comparable on the left - in terms of singular ideological purpose, effectiveness and depth and history of organization, and of access to power and influence - like the Federalist Society. As the NY Times piece notes, given the dominance of Republicans in American politics presently, it is hard to imagine any "worthy" (to use your term) candidate advanced by the administration who, regardless of ideology, would not succeed in a SC nomination. Clearly, those on the right in US politics consider that ideology IS a matter of serious importance for the future direction of the nation otherwise there wouldn't be any issue here or any organization to forward that ideology. Equally clearly, they have established PR techniques to make their ideology and the candidates who share it palatable to the public (palatable enough so as not to cause alarm). The hearings we have just watched (candidate rehearsed by murder boards to NOT speak openly/fully honestly) along with the huge media support exercise has precisely that as its goal.

As I said, I don't have a big problem with Alito (but I'm not well educated on constitutional matters and my opinion isn't worth much there). I don't think, for what it is worth, that Alito is 'dangerous' (with the single proviso mentioned). But what I DO consider deeply dangerous is the sophisticated manipulation of popular opinion through the combination of single party dominance, modern marketing expertise, information and media control, and broad public lack of awareness of those elements and how they are presently in play and, in many aspects, purposefully covert.

Feel free to point to the "worthiness" of the new Toyota Corolla. I'll take on the task of sharing how the showroom salesman will be complimenting your "beautiful child!" at the same time as he is shafting you on the blue book value of your trade-in.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 10:00 am
Blatham
Blatham wrote: "As I said, I don't have a big problem with Alito (but I'm not well educated on constitutional matters and my opinion isn't worth much there). I don't think, for what it is worth, that Alito is 'dangerous' (with the single proviso mentioned). But what I DO consider deeply dangerous is the sophisticated manipulation of popular opinion through the combination of single party dominance, modern marketing expertise, information and media control, and broad public lack of awareness of those elements and how they are presently in play and, in many aspects, purposefully covert."

We have to broaden our inspection of the peril of concentrated power. Everyone is alarmed about the three branches of government being dominated by the Republican Party. But it doesn't stop there. It is becoming clear that the campaign by lobbyist Jack Abramoff was not just to make a lot of money and influence legislation. It was a campaign hatched by Karl Rove to control the political party influence of lobbyists to enhance the control of elite business interests over legislation.

Not only are the Republicans trying to control the legislative branches, they are trying to control the country's economy and, through that, the foreign policy, including the military, of the US to protect our world dominance.

Tom DeLay's importance to the Republican Party was his skill at increasing Republican dominated districts and votes to increase their control over the branches of Government. DeLay's tactics were exactly like the notorious machine politics of the past, but not returned. DeLay was deeply involved with Abramoff's scheme to use lobbyists to increase Republican control.

BBB
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 01:44 pm
I find the insistence posted here by Blatham and BBB - in the face of so many facts that point to the contrary- that the success of ideas and political parties that they oppose, must necessarily be the exclusive result of an evil PR conspiracy, quite amusing. The tortured rationalizations are themselves quite remarkable. Though he described his reservations as minor, Thomas' rejoinder was devastating in its factual completeness.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 02:28 pm
blatham wrote:
PR campaigns for or against a mis-portrayed candidate (or a cause or a 'product') very often succeed quite regardless of that disconnection from what is so. See "connection between 9/11 and Sadaam". See Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. See "compassionate conservatism". See "I'm a uniter, not a divider". See "the administration today released very positive economic figures." See the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Polling figures tell us what thomas? They tell us about perception, not about reality.

The problem is that while current Republican pundits are cynical and self-serving about their misrepresentations, they know they are misrepresentations. The Democratic leadership seems to be much worse: They are idealistic about it, so tend to believe their own marketing lies. As to polling figures, they tell us what opinions prevail in society. These opinions may well be wrong, and as it happens I disagree with many of them. But that's not the point I am arguing here. I am arguing that the Democrats are wrong when they call Alito "radical" and "out of the mainstream." Right or wrong, the mainstream of public opinion in America fits closely with the positions Alito has taken. Polls are perfectly adequate evidence for this assertion of mine.

blatham wrote:
Would you have been so sanguine about this matter had Ronald Dworkin been the nominee, supported by Dem political dominance and an activist/PR support network comparable to what is the case now?

Yes I would. I am more of a Scalia man than a Dworkin man myself, and I'm sure my posting record shows that. But I think it also shows that I value fairness to opinions I disagree with, and that I am not given to paranoia about the people who hold such opinions. If the Democrats nominated Ronald Dworkin, it is possible I would not even oppose his nomination. It is certain that I would not support a Republican smear campaign of the kind that the Democrats ran against Bork, Thomas, and (in a somwhat milder form) Alito. And one aspect the C-Span replays show quite clearly is that the Republicans never ran comparable campaigns against Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Steven Breyer. Unlike the Democrats, they appeared to realize that this tactic would be stupid.

blatham wrote:
As you likely understand, there is nothing comparable on the left - in terms of singular ideological purpose, effectiveness and depth and history of organization, and of access to power and influence - like the Federalist Society.

There doesn't have to be, because the Warren Court took care of that a generation and a half ago. Consequently, all the Democrats have to be today is defenders of the status quo. Habits, precedent, and bureaucratic inertia will do most of that for them automatically, so the Democrats don't need a lot of judicial agenda-driving these days.

blatham wrote:
Feel free to point to the "worthiness" of the new Toyota Corolla. I'll take on the task of sharing how the showroom salesman will be complimenting your "beautiful child!" at the same time as he is shafting you on the blue book value of your trade-in.

Personally I think the adequate car metaphor for these confirmation hearings is the Ford Edsel. Great marketing, shoddy product, pretty much like the Democratic approach to the issue of judicial nominees.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 04:09 pm
BBB said,
Quote:
Not only are the Republicans trying to control the legislative branches, they are trying to control the country's economy and, through that, the foreign policy, including the military, of the US to protect our world dominance.


You have forgotten what the Constitution says.

Yes,the Republicans are trying to control foreign policy,but since the President is a REpublican,thats the way its supposed to be.
As President,he decides what our foreign policy is,and the state dept is tasked to carry it out.
The state dept does not set foreign policy,neither does congress.
It is set by the President,period.
When Clinton was president,he controlled foreign policy,and he was a Democrat.

As for the military,again read the Constitution.
The President is C-in-C,and as such,he commands the military.
Yes,he has the Joint Chiefs to advise him,but he is still the boss.
Again,when Clinton was President,he commanded the military.

As for protecting our "world dominance",do you really want a President that doesnt try to protect that?
Do you really want a President that wants to see this country decline aas a world power?

Personally,I dont.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 06:36 pm
Thomas wrote:
But that's not the point I am arguing here. I am arguing that the Democrats are wrong when they call Alito "radical" and "out of the mainstream." Right or wrong, the mainstream of public opinion in America fits closely with the positions Alito has taken. Polls are perfectly adequate evidence for this assertion of mine.


The Democrats have been attempting to label Republicans, the Republican Party as having been taken over by radical right wingers and out of the mainstream for a long time now. Hearings like the Alito one was very instructive because it shows how out of the mainstream people like Kennedy, Biden, and the rest of them are. My theory is that the young liberal staffers they hire and are around all the time in Washington, and just the social circles they move in, have gotten them so brainwashed and actually believing they are the mainstream. They have totally forgotten the common sense, hard working Americans out here in Fly Over Country that don't exactly buy into their political agenda. And of course, the media propagates their mistaken belief, as it is pretty well established that a majority of journalism people are Democratic or liberal, certainly not the same as in the mainstream, average, attitude of Americans.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 07:04 pm
Thomas wrote:
... It is certain that I would not support a Republican smear campaign of the kind that the Democrats ran against Bork, Thomas, and (in a somwhat milder form) Alito. And one aspect the C-Span replays show quite clearly is that the Republicans never ran comparable campaigns against Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Steven Breyer. Unlike the Democrats, they appeared to realize that this tactic would be stupid.


It may well be true that Biden, Leahy, Schumer, and Kennedy actually believe their shrill rhetoric. If so they are doubly dangerous. More likely is that they are unable to reconcile themselves to the political shift in the country that began after the disastrous Jimmy Carter, and need desperately to use the non-elected court to hold on to the political gains they made a generation ago.

The notion that they are defending the Democracy from an evil and Machiavellian PR scheme on the part of the Republicans is obvious bit of psychological projection on their part - and Blatham's.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 09:50 am
BBB
To whom are you addressing your criticisims of Democrats and those who defend them? It is unclear because neither Batham nor I are Democrats. I've stated several times I voted for Gore and Kerry because George W. Bush scared the sh*t out of me. Same reason I voted for McCarthy out of well founded fear or Richard Nixon.

BBB
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 10:02 am
BBB
BBB wrote: We have to broaden our inspection of the peril of concentrated power. Everyone is alarmed about the three branches of government being dominated by the Republican Party. But it doesn't stop there. It is becoming clear that the campaign by lobbyist Jack Abramoff was not just to make a lot of money and influence legislation. It was a campaign hatched by Karl Rove to control the political party influence of lobbyists to enhance the control of elite business interests over legislation.

Not only are the Republicans trying to control the legislative branches, they are trying to control the country's economy and, through that, the foreign policy, including the military, of the US to protect our world dominance.

Tom DeLay's importance to the Republican Party was his skill at increasing Republican dominated districts and votes to increase their control over the branches of Government. DeLay's tactics were exactly like the notorious machine politics of the past, but not returned. DeLay was deeply involved with Abramoff's scheme to use lobbyists to increase Republican control.


My comments are not just my own observations. They have been publicly opined by angry Republicans at the direction their party is taking.

BBB
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 11:40 am
Re: BBB
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
To whom are you addressing your criticisims of Democrats and those who defend them? It is unclear because neither Batham nor I are Democrats. I've stated several times I voted for Gore and Kerry because George W. Bush scared the sh*t out of me. Same reason I voted for McCarthy out of well founded fear or Richard Nixon.


I guess this was addressed to me. I don't know your political affiliations, or those of Blatham. However, I would be very surprised if either of you are Republicans. That doesn't leave many other possibilities.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 12:36 pm
Re: BBB
georgeob1 wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
To whom are you addressing your criticisims of Democrats and those who defend them? It is unclear because neither Batham nor I are Democrats. I've stated several times I voted for Gore and Kerry because George W. Bush scared the sh*t out of me. Same reason I voted for McCarthy out of well founded fear or Richard Nixon.


I guess this was addressed to me. I don't know your political affiliations, or those of Blatham. However, I would be very surprised if either of you are Republicans. That doesn't leave many other possibilities.


Many people register with a certain political party but rarely vote for that party's presidential candidate. For example, some states that have open primaries. Voters can vote for any party's candidate regardless of their own party registration. While I lived in California, there often was an organized re-registration (cross registration) of Republicans as Democrats so they could vote in the Democrat primary to elect the least likely to win primary candidate in the national election.

I'm registered as a Democrat because I want primary election information that is not provided to Independents. I rarely vote for Democrat presidential candidates except where I believe the Republican candidate is a threat to the country. In other words, I put my country before Party interests. I wish more Republicans would do that.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 12:40 pm
Re: BBB
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
[ In other words, I put my country before Party interests. I wish more Republicans would do that.


I suspect everyone believes that of themselves - even Teddy Kennedy.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 03:14 pm
I wish more Democrats would put country before party too. I don't see any. Maybe Lieberman, sometimes. Of course, theres Zell Miller. I don't know why he just don't quit his old party?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 07:53 am
thomas wrote
Quote:
The problem is that while current Republican pundits are cynical and self-serving about their misrepresentations, they know they are misrepresentations. The Democratic leadership seems to be much worse: They are idealistic about it, so tend to believe their own marketing lies.


Not a promising start, thomas. You hope someday to marry a woman both cynical and self-serving as such a creature is really better to be around than another who reaches towards hopeful personal and family ideals? After all, as your second sentence explains, there is nothing possible or even desireable other than lies.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 08:08 am
georgeob1 wrote:
I find the insistence posted here by Blatham and BBB - in the face of so many facts that point to the contrary- that the success of ideas and political parties that they oppose, must necessarily be the exclusive result of an evil PR conspiracy, quite amusing. The tortured rationalizations are themselves quite remarkable. Though he described his reservations as minor, Thomas' rejoinder was devastating in its factual completeness.


george

Pretty clearly, the full display and stock content of the Shoe Warehouse will have to drop on that anthem-echoing noggin before we see much improvement in your cognitive alertness.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Alito - take him or leave him - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/19/2024 at 03:23:42