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Bush Picks Judge Samuel Alito for Supreme Court

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 07:27 am
Debra_Law wrote:
Ticomaya:

Obviously, you don't know what you're talking about.


No, based on your prior comments where you spoke about Roberts putting religion before law, and where you called him a coward for not writing a separate opinion, it's clear you don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:
Roberts joined Scalia's opinion in the death penalty case making it the majority opinion by a vote of 5-4.

Roberts joined Scalia's dissenting opinion in Gonzales v. Oregon. He did NOT join the majority opinion that carried 6 votes.

I guess Bush got what he wanted: someone who would follow Scalia's lead.


Is that unconstitutional?

Quote:
I was hoping that Roberts, as the CHIEF JUSTICE, would be his own man instead of someone who would hide behind someone else's words.


So if he and Scalia share the same views, Roberts is not his own man? Truthfully, you won't be happy unless he shares your views.

Quote:
I am WAITING for Roberts to actually lead the ROBERTS' COURT. I am waiting for Roberts to write an opinion that would signal that he actually follows the rule of law rather than his religious beliefs.


And until he writes a separate opinion, you believe him to be a coward? I say again: "ridiculous."

Quote:
I am not opposed to the death penalty. Case in point: Joseph Edward Duncan deserves the death penalty. The death penalty, however, is the ultimate punishment and should be used sparingly and only in cases where its application cannot be reasonably questioned. Given the facts and circumstances of the death penalty case, the imposition of the death penalty was highly questionable.


Okay, that's your opinion. Now, please point out where Scalia applied religious principles instead of the law.

Quote:
If you had read Scalia's commentary on the government as God's minister and wielding the sword (the death penalty) on God's behalf, maybe you might also have concerns whether it is actually the rule of law that is being applied--or the will of God as perceived by members of our highest court.


I failed to see Scalia talk about the government "wielding the sword" in the Sanders opinion.

Quote:
Thus far, Roberts has joined Scalia's opinions that conveniently adhere to their shared religious beliefs. Again, how convenient for them.


And they followed the law.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 07:43 am
Debra_Law wrote:
I was hoping that Roberts, as the CHIEF JUSTICE, would be his own man instead of someone who would hide behind someone else's words. I am WAITING for Roberts to actually lead the ROBERTS' COURT. I am waiting for Roberts to write an opinion that would signal that he actually follows the rule of law rather than his religious beliefs.

I don't understand what difference it makes to you whether someone is chief justice or associate justice. Isn't the distinction merely administrative?

Debra_Law wrote:
If you had read Scalia's commentary on the government as God's minister and wielding the sword (the death penalty) on God's behalf, maybe you might also have concerns whether it is actually the rule of law that is being applied--or the will of God as perceived by members of our highest court.

Am I correct in presuming that you referring to his article in First Things? That's a journal about religion in public life, and Scalia's article is titled God's Justice and Ours. If our correspondents wish to discuss this, it's probably a good idea for them to read Scalia's article unfiltered first.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 07:49 am
Thomas wrote:

Walter, now you have made the same mistake as George.


Indeed. Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 07:50 am
I have read a few Warren court cases -- a small and possibly biased sample I admit. My immediate impression was that justice Brennan broke new legal ground more often than chief justice Warren did, and that Warren joined quite a lot of Brennan's opinions. Is this immediate impression correct? And if so, Debra, would this convince you that Earl Warren was "not his own man"?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:10 am
BBB
The important issue is Bush's Supreme Court appointments is not abortion, which was a smoke screen to divert attention away from their favor of increased presidential power. Bush's SC appointments have all been advocates of Unitary presidential-Executive Branch power. Bush is looking for their support when he is accused of breaking the law and violating the Constitution. Bush is successfully packing the court to protect himself.

Libertarians should be alarmed at Bush's goals.

BBB
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:15 am
Re: BBB
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
The important issue is Bush's Supreme Court appointments is not abortion, which was a smoke screen to divert attention away from their favor of increased presidential power. Bush's SC appointments have all been advocates of Unitary presidential-Executive Branch power. Bush is looking for their support when he is accused of breaking the law and violating the Constitution. Bush is successfully packing the court to protect himself.

BBB


Protect himself from what???

Your hysteria knows no bounds!
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:20 am
Re: BBB
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
The important issue is Bush's Supreme Court appointments is not abortion, which was a smoke screen to divert attention away from their favor of increased presidential power. Bush's SC appointments have all been advocates of Unitary presidential-Executive Branch power. Bush is looking for their support when he is accused of breaking the law and violating the Constitution. Bush is successfully packing the court to protect himself.

Libertarians should be alarmed at Bush's goals.

BBB


You agree with Debra that he's going to be running for Dictator soon?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:23 am
Bumble Bee Boogie wrote:
The important issue is Bush's Supreme Court appointments is not abortion, which was a smoke screen to divert attention away from their favor of increased presidential power. Bush's SC appointments have all been advocates of Unitary presidential-Executive Branch power. Bush is looking for their support when he is accused of breaking the law and violating the Constitution. Bush is successfully packing the court to protect himself.

Libertarians should be alarmed at Bush's goals.

BBB

While I agree that Bush's attempts to expand the executive's powers is troubling for libertarians, the rest of your post contains two serious misconceptions.

1) The great interest in the nominees' stands on abortion came mostly from liberal supporters of Roe vs. Wade. These including pretty much all Democratic senators and a few Republican ones. The Democrats at least had no interest in detracting from Bush's expansion of presidential powers. Nice conspiracy theory though.

2) You appear to misremember the definition of court packing. A president is said to pack the court when his appointment of a new judge increases the total number of justices. Abraham Lincoln packed the Supreme Court when he appointed Steven Field to it. Franklin D. Roosevelt attempted to pack the court when it struck down much of the New Deal legislation that he championed for some reason. But Bush never packed the Supreme Court. When a justice retires and you appoint someone you for his seat, that's not court packing.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:31 am
Thomas
Thomas, I knew exactly what I intended when I used the word "pack" and did not disremember anything. I know what Roosevelt's court packing attempt was about and the method he chose. He didn't have the opportunity to replace justices so he wanted to increase the numbers to achieve his goal. The goal was to get a Court majority to agree with his agenda. The Surpreme Court disagreed with his actions.

Bush has the same goal. The difference is that he had open court seats to fill to achieve his majority goals. Different circumstances, but same goal results.

Conservatives have been working on this goal for forty years via The Federalist Society. If Libertarians don't wake up they may succeed.

The Democrats who were focusing on the abortion issue made a big mistake. The Media's similar focus on abortion didn't help either.

BBB
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:39 am
I believe BBB is confusing virtue with the mere absence of opportunity for sin.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:40 am
BBB -- The problem is that "court packing" describes the method, not the intention. Words do have meanings, and you don't get to reinvent those meanings for rhetorical effect. The appointment of justices who are friendly to ones agenda does not constitute court packing.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:42 am
George
georgeob1 wrote:
I believe BBB is confusing virtue with the mere absence of opportunity for sin.


I've always admired the skill of devious moralists. I've always despied the idiots who believe them.

BBB :wink:
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:44 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Thomas wrote:

Walter, now you have made the same mistake as George.


Indeed. Embarrassed


Keep this up Walter and you will soon be harranging us about evil Europeans!
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:51 am
Thomas
Thomas, The use of Court Packing language is common today with regard to Bush's attempt at it. It appears you prefer to get into a snit over a passe use of a word than address the real issue of Unitary Executive Branch. Be my guest, but I'm not impressed. ---BBB


02-02

Do We Have to Worry About George W. Bush Packing the Courts?
By Evan Stephenson

Mr. Stephenson earned a B.A. in History from George Mason University. He is currently a student at the University of Virginia School of Law.

President George W. Bush plans to "pack" the federal courts with conservatives. Or so say a growing list of important people: Senators Charles Schumer and Patrick Leahy, Representatives Elijah Cummings and Anthony Weiner, Yale Law's Bruce Ackerman, and legal commentators John Dean and Edward Lazarus. News organizations such as Reuters, the Washington Post, the New York Times, and Time magazine have occasionally adopted Schumer and friends' usage of the verb "pack."[1] It is quickly becoming a stock term of political and journalistic parlance. Used this way, "pack" refers to the confirmation of ideologues as judges. In the Schumer lexicon, "to pack" means to ideologically predetermine judicial appointments.

However, this use of the term is a misuse with political value. The people listed above are Bush's adversaries; they use the term "pack" pejoratively. It carries a negative and stigmatizing tone. It subtly suggests that by nominating candidates of the Scalia-Thomas-Rehnquist ilk, Bush acts in bad faith. Those who wield the court-packing expression seek to put down President Bush's appointees and to deter him from nominating people whose views they dislike.

Politics aside a moment, this overly broad definition of court-packing has counterintuitive ramifications. Under such a meaning, nearly all American courts have already been "packed," and will inevitably continue to be. All presidents select candidates they first consider ideologically acceptable. Since "packing" becomes unavoidable, it would cease to be a coherent complaint.

Furthermore, even if a president hypothetically took no account of ideology, using Schumer-speak, "non-packed" appointments could not be objectively distinguished from "packed" ones because all pass through the same procedural checkpoints, nomination by the president and then confirmation by the Senate. One may distinguish the "packed" from the "non-packed" by only gazing through a special lens officiously provided by Schumer and friends--a lens itself colored by certain political dogmas.

Finally, Schumer and company's ideology-only definition exposes them to their own charge. For example, they would allow confirmations of judges whose views fall within a certain orthodoxy. Suppose they successfully block non-conforming candidates and allow conforming ones. By their own logic they would have "packed" the courts. The ideology blade--being relative--cuts in both directions.

These defects in the Schumer definition strongly argue that if the word is to have much descriptive value, "court-packing" should not mean weighting the bench toward an ideology through the constitutionally accepted confirmation process. Historically, the word has not carried this meaning. "Packing" more aptly signifies a procedural move to transform a court. This article proposes that court-packing occurs when another branch of government restructures the judiciary for the purpose of changing its rulings.

America has seen a true court-packing scheme. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt proposed a bill in 1937 that would have authorized a genuine packing plan. However, Roosevelt's bill is utterly dissimilar to Bush's goal. To contrast Bush's purposes with Roosevelt's has important contemporary relevance; it can discredit attempts by Schumer and friends to mislabel as court-packing otherwise legitimate appointments.

Roosevelt Court-Packing Versus Bush Nominations

On February 5, 1937, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the United States Congress and announced a plan to overhaul the federal judiciary, including the U.S. Supreme Court, by adding judges.[2] Roosevelt desired an unprecedented power to create new positions on the federal bench. He sought to appoint a new federal judge for every judge then-sitting who was over seventy years of age.[3] The Supreme Court itself was to absorb six more, increasing its membership from nine to fifteen. The proposal would have given the President effective control of the federal judiciary. Roosevelt eventually admitted the plan's rock-bottom purpose: to "liberalize" the courts so that New Deal legislation would survive constitutional challenges.[4] The Supreme Court had struck down, among other programs, one of Roosevelt's favorite creations, the National Industrial Recovery Act. (Ironically, liberal and conservative justices alike struck it down unanimously.)[5]

Thus, court-packing Roosevelt-style means to procedurally restructure the judiciary for the purpose of reversing its substantive rulings.

Argentina's history provides an example of how Roosevelt's bill might have affected the American legal system, had it passed in its original form. To overcome opposition to his proposals from Argentina's Supreme Court, former president Carlos Menem added four handpicked judges, increasing the Court's membership from five to nine. Menem's allies became the majority and rubber-stamped his policies. (Once again, a procedural innovation altered substantive law.) Unfortunately, leaders like Menem and Roosevelt are common in recent Argentina. "Since Perón, five of 17 presidents [have] named every member of the [Argentine Supreme] Court during their term."[6] The average tenure in Argentina for Supreme Court justices is below four years?-a shockingly rapid turnover?-considering the average tenure was over three times longer (twelve years) when Perón took power.[7]

Thus, Roosevelt's plan, like Menem's, called for the virtual demolition of then-current confirmation procedures to reorder substantive law. As Argentina's experience demonstrates, true court-packing causes radical fluctuations in the length of tenure of judges, the number of judges on a court, or the average percentage of judges appointed by individual presidents.

None of these conditions parallels George W. Bush's strategy to appoint conservatives to the federal bench. Schumer and company have it wrong on all counts. Bush has proposed no significant change in the number of judges or in the federal judicial structure. Moreover, conservatives already dominate the lead tribunal, the U.S. Supreme Court, which lower courts are sworn to follow. By seating Nino Scalia think-a-likes, Bush would be consolidating?-not newly establishing?-a conservative grip. Therefore, Bush's conservative nominations do not constitute court-packing.

Ultimately, Roosevelt's court bill failed. But despite its defeat, he tilted the federal judiciary sharply leftward by filling vacancies with ideologically selected candidates. By the close of 1941, Roosevelt had appointed the majority of Supreme Court justices without resorting to court-packing, and ushered in a new legal era.[8] Some of Roosevelt's individual nominees still aroused controversy, notably former Klansman Hugo Black. But all in all, when Roosevelt appointed left-leaning judges using the accepted procedural framework, the war cry of "court-packing" largely subsided. George W. Bush deserves no less.

[1] The "packing" accusations have been levied both before and after the 2002 mid-term elections. See "Bush Judicial Nominee is Rejected," Rutland Herald, 5 Sep 02 (quoting Senator Charles Schumer), http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/52587.html; for the same quote by Schumer, see Neil A. Lewis, "Democrats Reject Bush Pick in Battle Over Court Balance," New York Times 6 Sep 02, http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9C00E7D8123EF935A3575AC0A9649C8B63; Patrick Leahy, "Hearing for Miguel Estrada …" 26 Sep 02,

http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200209/092602.html; Leahy, "Statement of Chairman Patrick Leahy," Congressional Record, 10 Oct 02, http://leahy.senate.gov/press/200210/101002b.html; MD Representative Elijah Cummings's article posted on his site, "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty," 5 May 01, http://www.house.gov/cummings/articles/art01_18.htm; J.

Benson, "Super Chuck Flies Again!" New York Observer, 16 Nov 02, (quoting NY Representative Anthony Weiner), http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=4371; Bruce Ackerman, "Foil Bush's Maneuvers for Packing the Court," Los Angeles Times 26 Apr 01, reproduced at http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0426-02.htm; John

Dean, "Litmus Test For Litmus Tests: Why The Pickering Nomination Will Indicate Whether Bush Can Get Conservative Judges Confirmed," Findlaw, 1 Mar 02, http://writ.findlaw.com/dean/20020301.html; Dean, "After Election 2002, Bush plans to fill courts with right-wing judges," Findlaw 8 Nov 02, http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/11/08/findlaw.analysis.dean.judges/index.html; Edward Lazarus, "Fighting For the Soul of the Federal Judiciary:

What We Can Expect From Bush's Nomination Process, and His Nominees," Findlaw 20 Mar 01, http://writ.news.findlaw.com/lazarus/20010320.html; the Washington

Post uses a Reuters dispatch employing the "packing" language, "Democrats Expected to Approve Two Bush Judges," 13 Nov 02, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50091-2002Nov13.html; Neil A. Lewis, "Washington Talk; Democrats Readying for Judicial Fight," New York Times 1 May 01, http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9A03EEDE1638F932A35756C0A9679C8B63; Douglas Walker, "On

Judges, Washington Gets Ready to Rumble," Time 11 Jun 01, http://www.time.com/time/columnist/waller/article/0,9565,130022,00.html

[2] For a reprint of the speech, see: Franklin Delano Roosevelt, "Message on Judiciary," Evening Star 5 Feb 1937: A1+. Also reproduced at http://newdeal.feri.org/speeches/1937b.htm.

[3] Rober Biles, A New Deal for the American People (Dekalb: N. Illinois UP, 1991), 137.

[4] Owen L. Scott, "Roosevelt Determined to Liberalize Courts," Evening Star 14 Feb 1937: D2.

[5] See United States v. A.L.A. Schechter Poultry Corporation, 295 U.S. 495 (1935); for a summary of the Hughes Court's record on New Deal programs at the time of Roosevelt's speech, see: "Supreme Court Decisions on New Deal Laws Have Been 11 to 5 Against Administration," New York Times 6 Feb 1937: 8. Unanimous rulings against New Deal programs were quite common, see: Richard Maidment, "The New Deal Court Revisited," Nothing Else to Fear, ed. S. W. Baskerville and R. Willett (Manchester: Manchester UP, 1985), 36-63.

[6] Brink Lindsey, Against the Dead Hand (NY: John Wiley, 2002), 171.

[7] Lindsey, Against the Dead Hand, 171.

[8] Biles, A New Deal, 140; William Leuchtenberg, "FDR's ?'Court-packing' Plan," The Supreme Court Reborn (New York: Oxford UP, 1995), 132-62. Roosevelt's appointments through 1941 include Hugo Black (1937), Stanley F. Reed (1938), Felix Frankfurter (1939), William O. Douglas (1939), Robert H. Jackson (1941), and James F. Byrnes (1941).
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:56 am
Re: Thomas
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Thomas, The use of Court Packing language is common today with regard to Bush's attempt at it. It appears you prefer to get into a snit over a passe use of a word than address the real issue of Unitary Executive Bra


Yes, it's a phrase commonly misused by the anti-Bush crowd for its pejorative negative effect.

It remains a misuse of the term.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 11:57 am
Re: Thomas
Ticomaya wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Thomas, The use of Court Packing language is common today with regard to Bush's attempt at it. It appears you prefer to get into a snit over a passe use of a word than address the real issue of Unitary Executive Bra


Yes, it's a phrase commonly misused by the anti-Bush crowd for its pejorative negative effect.

It remains a misuse of the term.


Darwin was right. Words do evolve.

BBB
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 12:04 pm
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
The use of Court Packing language is common today with regard to Bush's attempt at it. It appears you prefer to get into a snit over a passe use of a word than address the real issue of Unitary Executive Branch, be my guest, but Im not impressed. ---BBB

A lie doesn't stop being a lie just because the liar is telling it in boldface, or because many people tell it. It is just plain dishonest to use the word 'court packing' in the way you do, and even your own source explicitly states this. ("However, this use of the term is a misuse with political value. ") You are playing a game of "heads my lie sticks, tails I'll put down my opponent for calling me on it". I am not impressed either. And that's all I have to say about your agitprop terminology.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 12:10 pm
Re: Thomas
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Thomas, The use of Court Packing language is common today with regard to Bush's attempt at it. It appears you prefer to get into a snit over a passe use of a word than address the real issue of Unitary Executive Bra


Yes, it's a phrase commonly misused by the anti-Bush crowd for its pejorative negative effect.

It remains a misuse of the term.


Darwin was right. Words do evolve.

BBB


Of course that is similar to the game of the leftists when they raise the non-issue of their concern with a "Unitary Executive Branch." What's wrong with a unitary Executive? After all, nobody is advocating a "Unitary Government," even if Dems like you & Debra think Bush is trying to become a dictator.

The concept of the Unitary Executive says nothing about unchecked executive power, no matter how breathlessly you try to insist it's the "real issue." That's what the executive branch is ... the President is in charge of the Executive Branch -- not Congress. You disagree?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 12:16 pm
Thomas
Thomas wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
The use of Court Packing language is common today with regard to Bush's attempt at it. It appears you prefer to get into a snit over a passe use of a word than address the real issue of Unitary Executive Branch, be my guest, but Im not impressed. ---BBB

A lie doesn't stop being a lie just because the liar is telling it in boldface, or because many people tell it. It is just plain dishonest to use the word 'court packing' in the way you do, and even your own source explicitly states this. ("However, this use of the term is a misuse with political value. ") You are playing a game of "heads my lie sticks, tails I'll put down my opponent for calling me on it". I am not impressed either. And that's all I have to say about your agitprop terminology.


Thomas, Would you be as exersized if I had used the term "fill" instead of "Pack"? Or is it a meaningless diversion?

BBB
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jan, 2006 12:24 pm
'Fill' is better because it does not carry the connotations of constitutional illegitimacy that 'pack' does. But what's wrong with 'appoint xxx justices to', where xxx is an adjective describing what kind of justices they are?
0 Replies
 
 

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