Quote:Any one who dosen't like the thought of freedom of religion, should move to another country. Try Bagdad!
All in one fell swoop you delcare hatred for both america and jesus. Smoth move there non. At least your consistent.
Momma Angel wrote:Yes, Mesquite. I know. You and others think that because some things have changed for the better that the others are (what?) not important?
You seemed to have totally ignored the things I felt are an erosion of Christian morals. Any reason for that?
Most of it was unsubstantiated rambling, but I would like to discuss this one.
Momma Angel wrote:1. Homosexuality has been a sin in God's eyes from the beginning and now because more and more people want (? may not be the right word) to either do this or let someone else have "their" choice, it is now becoming acceptable in our society. No erosion in values here?
Hopefully this example is one in which erosion has only begun but not yet vanished. In my eyes it is very similar to the discrimination that was biblically legitimized against blacks and women in times past.
By your tone, you seem to think homosexuality is voluntary yet repulsive. If you would just stop to think, that very repulsiveness should be your clue that it is not voluntary. Since I know that there is no way that I could be attracted sexually to another male, it is easy for me to view homosexuality as involuntary. If you would take off your blinders, you would see that it is the normal heterosexual repulsion to homosexuality that is driving you rather than adherence to some ancient religious text.
Homosexuals cannot CHOOSE to be heterosexual any more than you could choose to be homosexual. That you would deny them the right to have a loving caring relationship similar to what heterosexuals enjoy says much.
I am unaware of any words attributed directly to Jesus that speak to the issue. From my reading of the Bible, Jesus seemed to be more concerned the way people treated each other, than concern for Old Testament taboos.
Ah mesquite, you're forgetting the Beatitudes where jesus said "go forth and stone the fags." You have to keep in mind that the OT is not the NT, things changed.
Momma Angel wrote:And you seem to have a really hard time comprehending that there are two testaments in the Holy Bible, Mesquite.
Try reading the Beatitudes. I know I have said this to you before.
Oh, and do me a favor, check out this link:
http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html
Perhaps yours' and others' definition of separation of church and state might not be quite what you think. It's a possibility.
I was responding to non-denom christian's assertions about the Ten Commandments. I quoted the first four Ten Commandments in my reply. What friggin reason would I have to look at the beatitudes when commenting about the Ten Commandments?
Perhaps you should consult the beatitudes before conmemning homosexuals.
Mesquite,
Unsubstantiated rambling? Well, you show me where Christianity has caused these things to become more prevalent in our society? You show me where Christianity is the cause for the worlds' ills. Since when did people wanting to live good, productive lives that cause no harm to others (except the harm they obviously perceive in Christianity) become something to fight against? You and others are always speaking of proof, Mesquite. Show me your proof that Christianity has caused all this. Yes, I know, you have shown me articles where some blame Christianity for these things, but where is the proof? That is their opinion, just as you have yours, and I have mine. The only difference I see between us is you and others like to tell Christians how they should practice their religion and we aren't supposed to tell you what we think is right and wrong. That's what I get from these posts.
After all this time, you still have no clue as to what I am about, do you? Have I ever said I believe homosexuality was a choice? Have I ever called it personally repugnant? You are really putting words in my mouth here and they are not the right words.
Yes, God is against homosexuality. It is against God's laws; therefore, it is a sin. However, that does not mean that I gay bash or make fun of or discriminate against, etc., homosexuals.
There are a lot of things that are involuntary that men do nowadays. I haven't a clue as to whether they really are or not. Mental illness, etc., can cause all kinds of things to happen. No one seems to be able to prove one way or the other why anyone is homosexual. The fact is, it is against God's law. Check out First Corinthians 6:9, it says it is against God's law, and that's in the New Testament.
If someone is a homosexual, then that is between them and God. But, as long as I believe it is against God's laws, yes, I will lobby to not allow homosexual marriages and I will not apologize for that. But, it doesn't mean I am homophobic or a gay basher.
Momma Angel wrote:Mesquite,
Unsubstantiated rambling? Well, you show me where Christianity has caused these things to become more prevalent in our society? You show me where Christianity is the cause for the worlds' ills. Since when did people wanting to live good, productive lives that cause no harm to others (except the harm they obviously perceive in Christianity) become something to fight against? You and others are always speaking of proof, Mesquite. Show me your proof that Christianity has caused all this. Yes, I know, you have shown me articles where some blame Christianity for these things, but where is the proof? That is their opinion, just as you have yours, and I have mine. The only difference I see between us is you and others like to tell Christians how they should practice their religion and we aren't supposed to tell you what we think is right and wrong. That's what I get from these posts.
Unsubstantiated rambling means that just because you say it is so, does not make it so. I did not say that the things you mentioned were caused by Christianity, however easy access to assault weapons by disturbed children is something that has been aided by the agenda of the religious right.
Momma Angel wrote:After all this time, you still have no clue as to what I am about, do you? Have I ever said I believe homosexuality was a choice? Have I ever called it personally repugnant? You are really putting words in my mouth here and they are not the right words.
Yes, God is against homosexuality. It is against God's laws; therefore, it is a sin. However, that does not mean that I gay bash or make fun of or discriminate against, etc., homosexuals.
I have seen enough of your posts to have an idea of what you are about as relates to the issues which are of a concern to me. You freely admit to lobbying against homosexuals rights, you support the war president, you want your religious icons erected in our courts of law, you want prayer in public schools, you want Creation taught in science classes. In short your view of religious freedom is inflicting your view on all society.
You seem to think that so long as you are not swinging a club, that you are not gay bashing. This quote that you just made looks like bashing to me.
Quote:1. Homosexuality has been a sin in God's eyes from the beginning and now because more and more people want (? may not be the right word) to either do this or let someone else have "their" choice, it is now becoming acceptable in our society. No erosion in values here?
Momma Angel wrote:There are a lot of things that are involuntary that men do nowadays. I haven't a clue as to whether they really are or not. Mental illness, etc., can cause all kinds of things to happen. No one seems to be able to prove one way or the other why anyone is homosexual. The fact is, it is against God's law. Check out First Corinthians 6:9, it says it is against God's law, and that's in the New Testament.
I asked what Jesus had to say about it, not what Paul said. Paul said a lot of crap that also kept women oppressed for ages. Beatitudes remember?
Momma Angel wrote:If someone is a homosexual, then that is between them and God. But, as long as I believe it is against God's laws, yes, I will lobby to not allow homosexual marriages and I will not apologize for that. But, it doesn't mean I am homophobic or a gay basher.
Yes it does.
Mesquite,
Fine, you call me what you want. I know what I am.
We were talking about the erosion in Christian morals, weren't we? There are some Christians today that would say homosexuality is not a sin. So, yes, I do see that as an erosion of Christian morals. I said, in God's eye homosexuality is a sin. As long as it is a sin in God's eye I cannot and will not say the act of homosexuality is ok.
And that only makes me honest and a believer in the word of God. It makes me nothing else, except in your eyes maybe.
Momma Angel wrote: As long as it is a sin in God's eye I cannot and will not say the act of homosexuality is ok.
What's the matter? Can't find any words of Jesus condemning homosexuality? You are not going back to the OT or Paul's parroting of it for that conclusion are you?
Momma Angel wrote:And that only makes me honest and a believer in the word of God. It makes me nothing else, except in your eyes maybe.
It makes you a meddler in the affairs of others whose actions have no consequence to you. If you were equally as active in promoting God's wishes such as no work on the sabbath, then at least your arguments would have some credibility.
Mesquite,
This conversation is steadily going downhill. You have no idea what I actively promote and what I don't except for what we have discussed here. I know nothing about you and you know nothing about me.
I say let's call a truce?
Momma Angel wrote:Mesquite,
This conversation is steadily going downhill. You have no idea what I actively promote and what I don't except for what we have discussed here. I know nothing about you and you know nothing about me.
I have only been commenting on what you have written. Seems pretty clear to me.
Quote:If someone is a homosexual, then that is between them and God. But, as long as I believe it is against God's laws, yes, I will lobby to not allow homosexual marriages and I will not apologize for that.
Momma Angel wrote:I say let's call a truce?
No need for a truce. We are not at war. We are openly discussing issues that concern our nation and society. I was not attacking you. I was attacking your position. I will continue to oppose regression of our society by religious fundamentalists of whatever stripe.
I just don't like the labeling, Mesquite. I really don't. It offends me. I am offended when anyone labels anyone just because they believe differently.
You only know what I talk about on these threads. You don't know what I am actively involved in outside of A2K.
And I just have no desire to continue to be labeled for my most personally held beliefs. It's not a matter of feeling persecuted or anything like that. It's just common decency. There is another thread called Atheist....your life is pointless. I was one of the first to point out that person should never say anything like that.
You have a point about the labeling. I could have worded it better. With the new A2K rules I cannot edit to make a correction, so instead of an edit consider the line;
"I will continue to oppose regression of our society by religious fundamentalists of whatever stripe."
to be changed to read;
I will continue to oppose regression of our society by religious fundamentalist ideology wherever I see it appear. That makes it clear that my objection is to the ideology, not the person, somewhat akin to the "hate the sin, not the sinner approach.
And I cannot ask for more than that! Thanx!
