Goodness or enlightenment?

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From a Buddhist group

Poll results of: What is your goal in Buddhism

To Become a Buddha [20.31%]
To become a Bodisattva [12.50%]
To be a good person [23.44%]
To become enlightened [43.75%]
To get rebirthed as a higher being [0.00%]

(...) writes:

I wouldn't choose Buddhism simply to be a good person. There are so many other spiritual traditions that can help one do this. I am drawn to Buddhism because I want to understand my mind, and the root causes of suffering and happiness.

V writes:

But it seems as though you 'have' chosen Buddhism to be a good person all the same. For without knowing the root of our suffering and happiness, we become slaves to them. As slaves to our passions, it is hard to love ourselves. When it is hard to love ourselves it is impossible to love another. When we do not love ourselves or another we are not 'good' people. I try not to discriminate about the tools that can help me become a 'good' person. I draw from all spiritual paths that can provide such tools without prejudice or discrimination. 'Good Person' is the foundation of it all, for one can become enlightened I believe and still not be a good person in all respects. Whereas one cannot become a good person, without having 'some' enlightenment within. The amount of this enlightenment that is required to 'satisfy the ego' is the only question at hand. I voted 'Good Person' for myself. But a choice that would better describe my desires would be that of a person at peace. For when we are at peace within and with all there is no further goal other than maintenance.

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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 845 • Replies: 10

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I thought a buddha was an enlightened person. Buddha is just another word for it.

You're wasting your time trying to be a good person. "Good" has yet to be soundly defined. How would you presume to know what is good if you're not enlightened? There are no absolutes save for omm.

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I think the premise of the question, that one has to choose a goal, is debatable. Why can't a person be good & enlightened at the same time? Also, the comment by (...) implies that achieving enlightenment is more difficult that "simply" becoming a good person. that being the case, one should consider whether striving for elightenment & failing is in any way more worthwhile than becoming a good person. I also question the implication that becoming a good person is a simple task; the state of the world suggests that becoming a good person is a difficult enough task for many.

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Enlightenment is the recognition, by no one, that there is no self. There is no one to ?'become' a good person, no one to be a Buddha or Bodisattva etc. The ego-self doesn't survive enlightenment, in fact it is the very disappearance of the ego-self (or sense of) that constitutes so called enlightenment. Enlightenment is not something gained it is simple the loss of a sense of self, that's why it is said that we are all already enlightened.

When there is no self there is no ?'other'. There is the greatest compassion or love once it is recognized that there is only one being, which is non-being, and You Are That,..though even that is conceptual.

Point is, there is something right here and now that is being over looked, paradoxically by no one. Enlightenment is a pathless path.

imhv

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Twyvel, it follows from your remarks that the question that was posed, what is your goal in Buddhism, is meaningless, since there is no "you."

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yitwail

Right, As I see it enlightenment isn't a goal, or a goal orientation, i.e. you cannot get from here to here; if you are already non-being how can you ?'become' that,. THAT which you already are?

I think what Buddha ( and many others since, and before) recognized; the nature and presence of non-being, was/is so directly present and simple that it was thought necessary to devise a paradigm, or means of ?'arriving'. Yet if the various paradigms, e.g. meditation, contemplative practices, etc. end in the realization that ?'This is It', that there is nothing that is not it, then what is there to do? Where is there to go? What is there to attain?

The ego is the sense that something needs to be done, that there is something, some place/state etc. to get to etc., so meditation happens, inquiry happens etc., and yet all along, as is said, The seeker is the sought.

Surprised

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twyvel wrote:

Quote:

Enlightenment is the recognition, by no one, that there is no self.

I disagree. Enlightenment is to understand the true nature of the self. It is illusory, but so is everything else in this material world, thus understanding the self is understanding the material world.

Quote:

The ego-self doesn't survive enlightenment, in fact it is the very disappearance of the ego-self (or sense of) that constitutes so called enlightenment.

Well, yes and no. Enlightenment doesn't kill the self, it only reveals how interconnected everything is, and that the ego is, in fact, only a very small part of a human. A human is not an independent being. We are all imperfect circles, so to speak, and only in understanding our own relation to the bigger picture (omm, the perfect circle) can we ever feel whole. So to become enlightened is not the annihalation of the self, it is merely uncovering the self for what it really is. Then you are capable of understanding how things, you included, fit together as one big, perfect circle, omm.

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twyvel & Cyracuz, will whichever one of you is truly enlightened please stand up?

(i have no intent to be disrespectful, but i must be true to my nature and inject some levity into a discussion that's become rather lofty. Razz

)

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No damage taken, yitwail.

But wether to stand or remain sitting...

I'd say I'm enlightened in some areas and in others not, like most people. It has a lot to do with attitude. But hey, I'm no buddha. Smile

Still that is the ultimate mission, in my view, to realize the true nature of one's existence. We all have our own ideas about that, but it is not until we shed those we are able to see past the illution. So I may disagree with twyvel, but we are really just blowing air at eachother, because his way of seing it is probably the same as mine, only we put it into words so differently that what I read is a twisted version of my truth, while he reads my twisted version of his truth. It's a pickle. Smile

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Cyracuz wrote:

I'd say I'm enlightened in some areas and in others not, like most people. It has a lot to do with attitude. But hey, I'm no buddha.

that's a relief, because i've heard that if you see a buddha on the road, you're supposed to kill him, and i eschew violence. Smile

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Yea, I have heard that too somewhere. Probably some urging of an ancient dictator...

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