Morality: Open & Closed

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Captain Dave will under no circumstance torture a prisoner (open morality). Captain Jim will torture a prisoner when he considers such action will save the lives of his platoon (closed morality).

"The two main concepts of ethics are those of the right and the good; the concept of a morally worthy person is, I believe, derived from them." This quote and any others are from "A Theory of Justice" by John Rawls.

In teleological (explaining phenomena by final causes) theories of ethics the good is defined independently from the right.

The attitude of the individual is to seek the satisfaction of desire, more appropriately it is "the satisfaction of rational desire". Many people find that society should be just an extension of this attitude. The good, for society, is the satisfaction of rational desire. The right is that which maximizes the good.

Others in society reject this utilitarian view and find that the right comes before the good and embodies a boundary for the good. The right becomes a principle that has priority over the good.

Captain Dave rejects the utilitarian view of morality (open morality). Captain Jim embraces the utilitarian view of morality (closed morality).

Morality/ethics is a matter pertaining only to the relationship between subjects and thus there is nothing objective about it. All such matters are subjective and thus relative. Religion interjects God into the matter and thus makes it a matter of absolutes for believers.

Many individuals think of the individual as constituted by the community to which s/he belongs?-their value is dependent to a large extent upon the community. It is this interdependence upon the community that makes ideology so very potent. For the individual who embraces closed morality the ideological association is more important than to the person with an open morality.

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Could you put that in the form of a question?

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Joe

Why is the ideology of a person with a closed morality more important than for a person with an open morality?

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A line from pirates of the carribean comes to mind. "The only rules that matter are these: What a man can do, and what a man can't do."

The ideology of the survivor is the only one that matters. Winners write history, not losers.

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Re: Morality: Open & Closed

coberst wrote:

Captain Dave will under no circumstance torture a prisoner (open morality). Captain Jim will torture a prisoner when he considers such action will save the lives of his platoon (closed morality).

Doesn't ?'under no circumstance'.leads to absurdity. And if open morality is a morality divorced form all community, how is that even possible?

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Twyvel

I do not know of an example of such an absurdity. Could you give me such an example?

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Quote:

Cyracuz wrote:
The ideology of the survivor is the only one that matters. Winners write history, not losers.

Losers define winners and history. Winner (and loser) is a property of a relationship not a characteristic of a person. It takes two to tango, both matter.

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coberst

How many people will Captain Dave allow to die instead of torturing one individual, 1, one thousand, one million, 1 billion etc.

?'under no circumstance' is an absolute, such that Captain Dave will allow the entire human race to die, including himself, instead of torturing one individual.

And you are calling that open morality?

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morality all depends on the situation (as u ppl said circum..) , and i feel there is one more method to judge ur morality , which was devised by Mahatma Gandhi "Before doing anything , consider , whether ur action is equally acceptable by u, if someone other do that to u " ..

open or closed .. if there is no way , there will be no morality .. because , everything has some predence in our logic of morality , like at some position killing one enemy can be needed for saving our own fellow contrymen , here we cant go for a open morality ...

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Quote:

Losers define winners and history. Winner (and loser) is a property of a relationship not a characteristic of a person. It takes two to tango, both matter.

What do you suppose history would be like if Hitler completed his objective? We'd be speaking german here in Norway for one, and I doubt that we'd be learning of the heroics of the allied forces during the war. We'd be learning about how the blessed third reich blossomed and a vision of the great fuhrer came to life. Churchill would be remembered as a warcriminal, and Himmler, Goering, Goebles and that whole lot would be the heroes of the nation.

Losers don't define anything. They're at the mercy of the winners. This is not sports I'm talking about. Winner/loser is indeed a property of a relationship, but it is the winner that decides how that relationship will be remembered, as I explained above. As I said: Winners write history, and had the nazis won, for instance, history would be very different.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Winners write history, and had the nazis won, for instance, history would be very different.

As far as any generalisation can be, it's true that winners tend to define history. Of course as a truism the winner of any contest to define history defines history. When it comes to other matters, the winner of a military or political triumph may or may not define the history of the affair but in general they will have an advantage in doing so.

Regarding the original post, do you have a point to make Coberst? If so I haven't been able to determine what you're getting at.

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Sleeper

Of major importance is the importance of ideology for the one with closed morality. In the case of open morality ideology is not nearly as important because ideology does not control morality generally speaking anyway. If my moral behavior is controled by a cold-blooded rational principle then my hot blooded response will not generally dictate my behavior. Not so for the closed morality.

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Quote:

Of major importance is the importance of ideology for the one with closed morality

Because he is an idealist, and will therefore try to adjust the problem to his prefabricated answer.

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In the case of open morality ideology is not nearly as important

Because the subject has the character to act based on his own decicions.

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because ideology does not control morality generally speaking anyway

This leads me to conclude that a person dealing with "closed morality" is not really exerting his morals. He is hiding behind ideology, and his decicions are not made on a moral basis. Closed morality is not morality, in other words. It is just a fasade.

Morality is to make the best decicion for yourself and those you serve based on the information at hand in that particular situation. Thus, ideologies are for those without morals.

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Morality: Open & Closed

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